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[Alpheus]

I've searched here and elsewhere and can't find any info on the M249 accuracy/% to hit for each shot.  Anyone got it?

[Aster11345]

Shouldn't it only depend on the Rifle skill of the individual rather than accuracy of gun?
I think it's about the same as the M4A1 or M16

[KA101]

Doubt it.  The M249 is a Heavy Weapon, same as the M2 Flamethrower.

Checked the XMLs?  I think there's some explanation of it in there--better than nothing, at least.

[Edit: Now that I think of it, the M249 really ought to be legal at C+ Gun Control.  It is a machine gun and C+ is "Machine guns can be bought and sold freely"; even an AA gun (gatling/flak shreds people too!) is legal at C+ and those are much nastier.]

[Jboy2000000]

[Edit: Now that I think of it, the M249 really ought to be legal at C+ Gun Control.  It is a machine gun and C+ is "Machine guns can be bought and sold freely"; even an AA gun (gatling/flak shreds people too!) is legal at C+ and those are much nastier.]

Thats acctually a good point, I think the C+ Gun Law text should be changed, or just have M249s be on sale for tons of money.

[EuchreJack]

[Edit: Now that I think of it, the M249 really ought to be legal at C+ Gun Control.  It is a machine gun and C+ is "Machine guns can be bought and sold freely"; even an AA gun (gatling/flak shreds people too!) is legal at C+ and those are much nastier.]

Thats acctually a good point, I think the C+ Gun Law text should be changed, or just have M249s be on sale for tons of money.

While I agree that some sort of machinegun should be on sale when C+ Gun Laws are in effect, I don't think the one you can only get from the Armory should be the gun.  The US Army likes to keep a monopoly on its best weapons, you know.

I might even suggest that the M249 be available for sale, and the M60 be available at the Armory.  The M60 is a monster compared to the M249.  The main reason the M249 is more popular in military service is because only the biggest guys can carry around a M60, and even then somebody else needs to carry most of the ammo.  In contrast, the M249 can mainly be carried and operated by a single soldier.

As for the description, I'm pretty sure it refers to the MP5s being on sale at C+ level.

[Snowblind]

M60 is obsolete in the USA, but there is the M240B.

Thing about the M240 and the M60 is that they are too bulky, front heavy and unwieldy to shoulder and fire. You have to set it on the ground and lay down behind it, or shoot from the hip.

With an M249, you can stand up and bring it to your shoulder and look down the sights and shoot (sorta) accurately. You can't do that with a M240B or M60 or any machinegun like it, they are designed to be fired from the prone and that sort of combat is outside the scope of LCS.

[KA101]

[Edit: Now that I think of it, the M249 really ought to be legal at C+ Gun Control.  It is a machine gun and C+ is "Machine guns can be bought and sold freely"; even an AA gun (gatling/flak shreds people too!) is legal at C+ and those are much nastier.]

Thats acctually a good point, I think the C+ Gun Law text should be changed, or just have M249s be on sale for tons of money.

While I agree that some sort of machinegun should be on sale when C+ Gun Laws are in effect, I don't think the one you can only get from the Armory should be the gun.  The US Army likes to keep a monopoly on its best weapons, you know.

Perhaps, but then the NRA likes to have All The Guns available.  At C+ I think they'd be winning that fight.  Militia types in particular would be lobbying quite strongly against the EuchreJack Gun Control Travesty.

I might even suggest that the M249 be available for sale, and the M60 be available at the Armory.  The M60 is a monster compared to the M249.  The main reason the M249 is more popular in military service is because only the biggest guys can carry around a M60, and even then somebody else needs to carry most of the ammo.  In contrast, the M249 can mainly be carried and operated by a single soldier.

As for the description, I'm pretty sure it refers to the MP5s being on sale at C+ level.

The MP5 is a sub-machine gun.  SMG and all that.  I'll start a separate thread for that as I think they need more love.

[EuchreJack]

[Edit: Now that I think of it, the M249 really ought to be legal at C+ Gun Control.  It is a machine gun and C+ is "Machine guns can be bought and sold freely"; even an AA gun (gatling/flak shreds people too!) is legal at C+ and those are much nastier.]

Thats acctually a good point, I think the C+ Gun Law text should be changed, or just have M249s be on sale for tons of money.

While I agree that some sort of machinegun should be on sale when C+ Gun Laws are in effect, I don't think the one you can only get from the Armory should be the gun.  The US Army likes to keep a monopoly on its best weapons, you know.

Perhaps, but then the NRA likes to have All The Guns available.  At C+ I think they'd be winning that fight.  Militia types in particular would be lobbying quite strongly against the EuchreJack Gun Control Travesty.

Hold on, I take offense to that.  I never said that it would be illegal to own any sort of machinegun.  The operative word was "monopoly".  So while the Armory weapon would be exclusive to the military, the exclusivity would be due to the manufacturer only selling to the US Army.  Your "liberals" could use the weapon freely: they just can't buy it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

M60 is obsolete in the USA, but there is the M240B.

Thing about the M240 and the M60 is that they are too bulky, front heavy and unwieldy to shoulder and fire. You have to set it on the ground and lay down behind it, or shoot from the hip.

With an M249, you can stand up and bring it to your shoulder and look down the sights and shoot (sorta) accurately. You can't do that with a M240B or M60 or any machinegun like it, they are designed to be fired from the prone and that sort of combat is outside the scope of LCS.

While this is true in reality, LCS blatently runs on Hollywoodian Physics. What's cool is what's possible, and someone running around with an M60 quite literally going Rambo is cool.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

A lot of the issues of weapon X being legal at gun control Y are really a matter of weapon X being suspicious or not. An illegal weapon is always suspicious if you aren't able to conceal it or look like someone with the authority to carry one, but that's not the only reason a weapon might be suspicious. Swords are suspicious even though you can buy them for $200 at any gun control law. So even at C+ gun control, the game assumes that carrying a light machine gun, while outside military uniform, is pretty suspicious.

The other issue of legality is where the weapons are sold; the pawn/gun shop doesn't sell the M249 or the Deagle at any gun control level, so it seems like they're always illegal. But that's really more a matter of just a decision to not have the pawn shop carry them, rather than a decision to have them be conceptually illegal.

Beyond these two manifestations of weapon legality, neither of which strictly map to legality, the game doesn't have any concept of whether a weapon is legal or not. You can't be charged with a crime for having or carrying an M249. It's just that because doing so always causes alarm, and the pawn shop doesn't sell them, it gives the impression that they're illegal.

I think I intended the M249 to be a unique gun that you could only get once, and only from a site special, similar to the Deagle; but if it's not, I don't see a huge issue with selling it in the pawn shop for a suitably high price.

The thing about the M60 is that it's identified with Rambo. He unloaded from the hip with one in the climax of First Blood as he shot up storefronts and a police station in a small US town. MetalSlimeHunt's argument for the weapon's validity from this standpoint is pretty sound, given LCS's mixed level of realism and occasional nods to popular culture.

[KA101]

OK.  First: apologies to EuchreJack, who I offended.  Presuming it was the (intended as humorous) attaching of his name to a gun-control provision.  Will dial that back in future.

Second: I checked the weapon XML & the M249 fires 5-shot bursts with an accuracy bonus, but is commented "spray and pray".  I don't have experience with the code.  Is it more or less accurate than (say) the M16?

Thanks for the clarification of firearm legality; I recalled seeing something about charges for "firing an illegal weapon" but that was probably a few revisions ago.  In any event, cross-training in Pistols, Sword, & Martial Arts has already been implemented & Shotgun will soon follow.  This LCS will Liberally Comply with the Gun Control laws it encourages, whilst retaining combat efficacy!

I'd agree with the M60 (and since it's obsolete, making it a unique could be OK as a "museum piece"; stealing it from a MilBase shrine or somesuch and getting Terrorism?)  being a one-off Heavy Weapon.  However, respectfully suggest that uniques have ammo available for purchase.  Having to get a Murder charge every time I want to get Deagle ammo or a Treason charge for more M249 belts encourages Too Awesome To Use, which may or may not be intended.

[Neon Green]

The only accuracy factor associated with the weapon is the accuracy bonus, so the m249 is more accurate than anything else. The comment is just that, a comment.

Shotguns are really amazingly terrible and all other guns are illegal at L+. If you really want to gimmick with legal weapons, use swords, or possibly guitars if you really hate success.

I have to wonder what you're doing with the fancy guns that picking up charges for getting one matters.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Automatic weapons have a cumulative accuracy penalty for their burst fire; the first shot uses the weapon's accuracy, and successive shots are less and less and less accurate. "Spray and pray" refers to the fact that the M249 is set to fire 5 shots, which includes some really awful accuracy ones. It gobbles ammo wastefully. Which isn't that bad in practice, since it has a lot of it to begin with.

[KA101]

OK, thanks.

After a while, Treason and Murder charges will bring heat on the safehouse, and my founder w/10 Law, 13, Persuade, 17 or so Heart, and 13 Charisma could only get the sentence down to 20 years.  (0 actual Murders, 8 Flag Murders, 3 Treasons, I think, along with over 100 Harmful Speech and other miscellaneous charges.  At some point I ought to compile a wiki page on what does/does not get charged.)  Some people don't like being murderers* and think Treason should involve a little more than looking for ammo.

*The Firemen applied lethal force to unconstitutionally deny us our First Amendment right to freedom of the press**, and the CCS poses a clear and present danger to civilian lives.  Repelling Fireman raids and raiding the CCS safehouses is justifiable...and doesn't draw charges.

**Without an Arch-Conservative Amendment, it still exists--even if the government is ignoring it.

Gimmicky it may be, but I like at least trying to stay true to the LCS' principles--someone had an idea about having the game call you on things like shooting people to promote Gun Control, publishing CEO material whilst advocating Privacy, things like that.  ("Public Juice Counter" or something like that, IIRC?)

I liked that idea and informally implement it.  I'm also doing no kidnapping/interrogation unless someone actually gets re-educated in prison.  (Haven't had that happen yet, but not sure how I'd find out about it.)

As for shotguns, they seem to work well against unarmored or light-armored targets; Body Armor doesn't seem to slow them down that significantly.  Army armor does, and I try not to engage the police so I don't know about SWAT or Police armor.  Swords have done pretty well IME, and the martial artists can & do significant damage.  (STR 19 probably helps.)

Agreed that guitars in combat is a excellent way to justify using firearms next time.  "All we did is sing at them and they shot us!"

[EuchreJack]

OK.  First: apologies to EuchreJack, who I offended.  Presuming it was the (intended as humorous) attaching of his name to a gun-control provision.  Will dial that back in future.

Please, don't apologize.  I didn't mean to take actual offense.  Humor is good!

With my ego, I'm always happy when people are talking about me!