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[Il Palazzo]

Well I didn't change control of any ministry, the game won't even let me.  It still says "I have already assigned ministries this turn."

You're not allowed to change ministries when you draw, so that's the reason. The opportunity for exploits arises once you win the election while already a regent.

As for the unit pay, what mainiac said. The slider should be exactly half way through, which is 100 clicks from either side.

Anyway, let's agree on this new house rule:

Players are not allowed to exploit reassigning of the ministry control after successful election to give orders to two ministries on the same turn.
If the elected player intends to reassign a ministry to himself on a given turn, he may only make use of the new ministry's units.

[Kebooo]

The best way to win is for one player to have all three relics (hence my treachery), and seize the regency by any means. Whether it is through diplomacy and soft words, or assassinating enough nobles right before an election. Then they can declare themselves emperor and have essentially an invincible fleet hover above Byzantium II to mostly stop any interference (outside of marauders). Killing nobles so a house can't vote for 10 years is pretty much the only way to win. You could conceivably seize enough scepters but other houses, if they're interested in not losing, will notice you going after a capital or Leagueheim/Holy Terra and should intervene. Or, at some point, enough assassinations would lead to the elimination of all nobles from a house.

For me, EFS isn't about the end of the game, it's about the real meat of the wars and political intrigue. Sometimes they just get to a complete stalemate and there isn't much sense continuing on after you've had your fill of all the war, but I think we still have a long ways to go before that. Three players haven't even been involved in a war yet after 55 years.


I think if I was to change something about standard Nova/EFS, or even set up a role playing galaxy, nobles would strictly be confined to Byzantium II and any captured nobles would have to be disbanded. That way there is always the specter of true elimination and far more effort for wide scale assassination.

[Il Palazzo]

I wouldn't say that the three relics make for such an invincible fleet. A concerted attack by three or four other players would take such a fleet down.
The difficulty is in making sure they can't muster their fleets on time.

[Kebooo]

I'm not so sure about that. I have seen another player have all three relics and all the other players assail his fleet in succession, his victorious above them all, and then quickly reinforced on his turn. You could have a battle carrier, three relics, and 16 dreadnoughts. The dreadnoughts would have 240 armor along with 13/285 indirect, 13/375 direct attack. Let's not forget that a considerably inferior ground force on Cadavus defeated my force without a single casualty: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/60053610/aftermath.png

A super stack that's on par with any other stack with the relics is almost unbeatable, unless each house has multiple fleets to attack it with before it can be reinforced.

[Il Palazzo]

I don't know. I hope it is not as bad a thing as you paint it. That would be somewhat game breaking.

[Kebooo]

I would call it game breaking, no question, for one player to control all three relics. In fact I really hate the battle relics in general, I think they should perhaps be a third of the power they are now, given the importance of one super stack vs another super stack. I would characterize mainiac's fleet as having less firepower than mine, but it wiped the floor with mine with one relic plus a battlemaster. Which then lost me two entire worlds. So really the presence of a single relic in a single battle helped shift two worlds. So much of the game's fate can be determined by who is fortunate enough to have the battle relic show up for them in a ruin.

[Il Palazzo]

Have you ever tried modifying the relics.dat file? Does it work at all?
If yes, then I'd be inclined to tone them down a bit, if other players agree.

[Kebooo]

I believe it does, though I haven't done combat testing. In the future I would love to have them toned down, actually I would love to see a more multiplayer driven rebalancing of EFS/NOVA. I think one thing EFS really needs in multiplayer is an eventual super weapon type scenario, or exponential growth, something that if the game has gone on for so long, 100+ turns, then the leading economic/military player will be able to just explode in power and easily win. Or make assassinations easier and harder to defend against. Something that would make an actual end to the game more feasible.

[mainiac]

It wasn't just the relic though.  It was also the battlemaster bonus and having on average more powerful ships.  If you watch the replay you'll see that it was the lighter craft that died first on both sides.  But my lighter craft had more staying power, letting them stick around to evade hits and screen my cruisers while yours were exposed.

The relic bonus is powerful but it also soaks up very limited space in orbit.  Yes if someone can get 17 vlads then a relic is a no brainer but that takes a long time and I'd be surprised if the game lasts that long.

[Il Palazzo]

I believe it does, though I haven't done combat testing. In the future I would love to have them toned down, actually I would love to see a more multiplayer driven rebalancing of EFS/NOVA. I think one thing EFS really needs in multiplayer is an eventual super weapon type scenario, or exponential growth, something that if the game has gone on for so long, 100+ turns, then the leading economic/military player will be able to just explode in power and easily win. Or make assassinations easier and harder to defend against. Something that would make an actual end to the game more feasible.

But... that's exactly what the relics do now.

[mainiac]

I just ran a quick test where I played the Cadavus space battle over again but swapped my relic for another fighter squadron.  It was a bit more even but it was still pretty clear that my forces had the upper hand.  I lost four fighters, one frigate, four destroyers, one cruiser.  Decados lost four fighers, four frigates, three destroyers, two stations, four cruisers and a transport.  I doubt I probably would have sought out battle if I hadn't had the relic with me, but the relic wasn't solely responsible for victory, it just increased the margin by which my more powerful forces won.

[Kebooo]

Yeah, the battlemaster certainly has a decent hand in it too and it's something I regret not picking up at the start of the game. I thought I would be able to get a big enough economic lead for it not to matter that much, and I hoped to secure one relic. When you look at the ships themselves, the difference comes down to 4 destroyers vs 1 cruiser, 2 star bases and 3 frigates and a carrier. I think the latter would typically win. Battle bonuses are pretty huge in this game and at this point there's really nothing I can do about it save try to come in with superior numbers.

Of course not all of our ships were mustered at Cadavus, but it was the incredible disparity in loss that made it so I couldn't hope to fight elsewhere against you, especially when the results would be the same again. If you had lost 10 ships like that, there might have been some semblance of hope of resisting. Or if you had even lost the relic.

Palazzo, the problem with relics is how RNG finding them is. If they were instead researched and eventually acquired, I think that would be pretty cool, some procedural way to obtain them late in the game to break a stalemate. With all three relics and the battlemaster bonus, Mainiac would have decimated every fleet pitted against him, a mere 40 turns into the game.

[mainiac]

If the imperial fleet had come after me I would have been wiped flat.

I certainly was underestimating the power of the relics though.  I should have guarded them much more carefully.  I also shouldn't have trusted the word of Aqizzer to be worth a thimble of piss.

[Kebooo]

I think all your ships mustered together, the three relics, and the battlemaster could have given a stack of 20 fleet ships a run for its money at the time. Granted the whole galaxy banding together against you could have stopped it, but at some point once you have full stacks of dreadnoughts, the three relics + battlemaster would be unbeatable. I'm actually curious to do some combat tests with the relics. In my opinion, a relic should add more to a stack than the best unit can. So a relic should add more than a dreadnought or a DNA assault legion. Maybe act as the equivalent of 2. But otherwise I think they are just way too powerful, especially stacked together.

[Il Palazzo]

I also shouldn't have trusted the word of Aqizzer to be worth a thimble of piss.

Now now, that's just you shifting the blame.
No amount of words and honour could have stopped Kebooo from attacking you like he did. How did you expect the Fleet to intervene?

If anything, by his word, Aqizzar would be obliged to attack your stack, since you had left a few bombers with it, while Kebooo grounded all combat ships during his turn.

Palazzo, the problem with relics is how RNG finding them is. If they were instead researched and eventually acquired, I think that would be pretty cool, some procedural way to obtain them late in the game to break a stalemate. With all three relics and the battlemaster bonus, Mainiac would have decimated every fleet pitted against him, a mere 40 turns into the game.

I don't know. I generally dislike the games where economy is the only surefire way to win the game. Rather than make the strong even stronger by the mechanics you've proposed, I prefer a bit of randomness thrown in to make things less predictable.