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[Glowcat]

Honestly, it depends on what sort of environment you're trying to create with the IRC channel. While I prefer direct engagement (at least on forums) some people do just want to avoid the sort of feelings that can crop up in arguments. That route has its own issues to deal with. It probably should be kaijyuu's decision if he's the one creating it, as nobody is really forced to join the unofficial channel.

[kaijyuu]

It's pretty easy to determine who keeps blowing things out of proportion. True, it's a hell of a lot harder to deal with such people than assholes, as they're always playing the victim card and confronting them about it will almost certainly just mean more of the same.

What I'm asking for is analogous to "growing a thick skin," though perhaps more lenient than that.

[GlyphGryph]

I've found places that adopt the /exact opposite strategy/ tend to be the nicest.

See: Bay12, which has no user mods at all, and Toady only comes down for serious problems - we mostly take care of ourselves.

Community expectation and reinforcement are far more powerful tools than running to the mods for every slight issue. And with mod-beggin, if it isn't resolved to the users satisfaction, you now run the risk of a public fight /with a mod/ which undermines... a hell of a lot. In my experience, mods are often the number one source of drama in most places. When another user does something stupid, it's just another user - when a mod does something stupid, that's the /system/ attacking you, and like all authority, they will tend to band together in the face of opposition from non-mods... even when the mod in question is utterly in the wrong. If you've got fair, responsive mods with limited involvement, awesome! But if not...

I'm not saying this will happen here - but from what I've seen, the more mods you add, the more likely it is to be an issue, and the greater the pressure (and expectation of wielding power to resolve even minor situations) you put onto mods, the greater potential for devastating and long-term drama instead of brief and temporary flare-ups between users. Especially since your moderation rules amount to "Get rid of whoever you don't like - after all, anyone who disagrees with you is an asshole and anyone who comments on something being wrong or improper is clearly an oversensitive".

Honestly, I think those two rules may be the best way, combined like that, to create drama that I've seen in... quite a while, really. Especially when both end up defined as "the mods whim".

And "growing a thick skin" can just as easily be seen as "acting like a coward who's afraid to respond appropriately to egregious behaviour". Don't make waves - let yourself be victimized! If the other guys an asshole, the mods will take care of... maybe. Eventually. If you can't take it, you don't belong here - If you (or anyone else) tries to do something about it, you're clearly an oversensitive and will be given the boot!

It creates an environment that accepts bad behaviour as inevitable and unpreventable, honestly.


You don't really need to take any of this advice into account, of course - I may be wrong about everything her, and I won't exactly be around, and don't really care. But I feel like you might setting yourself up for further trouble here.

[Aklyon]

I'd say the one rule I had/have on my minecraft server that was not the obvious non-griefing one worked pretty well (Don't be a dick), except when people were being ridiculous with bukkit commands and stuff be crashing 
But like GG said, you don't have to listen to this either.

[Zangi]

If I may suggest... 

Laissez Faire, at least for now.  We are among friends, mostly.  You don't need a mod to say 'this conversation isn't going to end well'... though, some people can't take that hint... will have to see though.

[kaijyuu]

Seriously, I don't think my expectations are at all unreasonable. I'm not asking for the world here. I'm just asking that people be decent human beings. I'm worried that it will be *under* moderated, not over.

I feel I've provided reasonable recourse for every type of conflict.
- Friendly conflicts obviously won't have any issues.
- Non friendly that still have respect between the two people still won't have issues.
- People making the channel unpleasant in some way can be dealt with by mods. (and ignore, if for some reason a mod isn't available)
- People who absolutely must duke it out can do so outside the channel. Private messages exist. Temporary channels exist too.


The impression I'm getting from you people is that you're saying reasonable folk will be able to withstand pressure if their positions are actually reasonable. I would agree to that... if this were a perfect world where everyone treated everyone else with respect. There are assholes who will drive people out of the channel by throwing bile. There are hypersensitives who will cry at the merest mention of them possibly being wrong. I wish to deal with neither if at all possible. Anyone inbetween will have no problem with my rules.

[Flying Dice]

Honestly, I feel the first of the forum guidelines would be much more clear.

Do not pick a fight or insult another person.  Do not continue a fight if you feel you have been insulted.

[GlyphGryph]

Rules against clear actions are almost always better than rules against people. And a lot less likely to cause drama.

[Aklyon]

Undermoderated is better than overmoderated, I'd say. The former is easily fixable as any (major) problems appear, the latter ends up killing interest before it can get fixed sometimes.

[Eagleon]

Honestly, I feel the first of the forum guidelines would be much more clear.

Do not pick a fight or insult another person.  Do not continue a fight if you feel you have been insulted.

+ GlyphGryph,
I would agree. Easy enough to spot, easy enough to settle. Smaller channels of tight-knit friends can use the 'gut feeling' sort of conflict-elimination that the current rules imply, but it's going to cause problems with so many people coming and leaving, especially since there's definitely not any kind of overall topic to center around. Besides Wrex needing better hugs.

[kaijyuu]

I've been mulling over what happened, and what a lot of people have said, and have noticed some things.

I've been on the defensive so far. You people like conflict? Fine. Pull out your thick skins.


First off, who was the source of every single piece of drama that happened in my channel? No one who frequents the lower boards. Every. Single. Instance. Was started by someone from #bay12games. Two things to take from that: one, don't be condescending toward my channel if your'e the cause of the issues in it, and two, perhaps this sheds a little more light on why I made a new channel in the first place.

Next, what the hell type of people do you normally associate with where "don't be an ass" is an unreasonable rule? Assholes, I'm guessing. There are wretched hives of scum and villainy for such people. They can stay in such, not my channel. Drama is not a common issue in communities I frequent. If it is in the places you do, I don't think the problem lies in how I deal with things.

Also, "hugboxes." I presume you mean "echo chambers" by this. An echo chamber is a community where every dissenting opinion is either pushed aside and ignored, or doesn't exist for some other reason. I dispute the notion that my channel (and by the extension, the lower boards) are an example of this (barring some issues with the political threads -- dissenting opinions are crushed abrasively quite often there), because I do not ban dissenting opinions of any fashion. Only attitudes. Abrasive, jerkass behavior has no place here, not because of what they say, but what kind of person says it. I feel such a person will bring nothing of value to my channel, whether they agree with anything or not.

I also levy the same accusation back at you. Smeding told me how you treat certain subcultures over there, and how only the exceptionally thick skinned ones actually stick around. When you scare off or insult people into leaving, how the hell is that not an echo chamber? Only the strong personalities survive, and you're left only with what they think. You haven't "won" an internet debate if you just made the other person leave in disgust. You just proved yourself an ass. You're the one with the "hugbox," as you define it.


I'm open to criticism. I'm open to dissenting opinions. If I only wanted people who agreed with me, I'd of banned half of you already for daring suggest I'm doing something wrong. But I'm not doing that. Continue to criticize, if you so wish. Go ahead and giggle at my antics in your channel, if you want. Outright crucify me. I can take it. I will not accept abrasive behavior toward those under my wing though, unless you do it privately and abstain from harassing them. If you try it in my channel, you'll face me.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You guys are pretty clearly incapable of handling this whole thing. It has been one day, and we already have implosions and MASS DRAMA not only in IRC but now leaking over into Bay 12 proper.

[Aklyon]

The chat was nice last night at least.

[Karlito]

The channel is now completely devoid of drama of any sort. I'm a little disappointed actually, this thread created some expectations.

[GlyphGryph]

...are you talking exclusively to G-Flex here? Because he's the only #Bay12Games person that's posted in this thread, near as I can tell. Yet you say "you people".

Don't you think you're overreacting just a little bit here?