Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 13

Author Topic: Gender and all it entails  (Read 22938 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2012, 01:38:58 am »

I am equally done with this discussion, as I cannot see any reason to believe that you are not heavily biased against me based on the actions of other people, and thus we will get nowhere.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2012, 01:54:43 am »

-snip-
I mean, I can't actually explain it rationally, either. I'm asserting that I don't have to - that it's as acceptable as stating "I am a woman." I don't understand what the fundamental difference here, because they're both assertions about myself (well, I'm not a woman, but I'm keeping the article's quote for emphasis). I'm not making an assertion about the value of the trans person in question.

I don't understand this second avenue, either. You seem to be essentially saying that either new information is not allowed to change how you act, or you have to justify it. All information is, at some point, new, so the former is clearly unworkable and the second just leads back into my first paragraph.

I mean, I'm essentially arguing that you have an impression of somebody, learn that impression is wrong, and are not attracted to the updated impression, and that there's nothing about this that is particularly wrong - although you can certainly handle it wrongly.
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2012, 02:24:10 am »

I mean, I can't actually explain it rationally, either. I'm asserting that I don't have to - that it's as acceptable as stating "I am a woman." I don't understand what the fundamental difference here, because they're both assertions about myself (well, I'm not a woman, but I'm keeping the article's quote for emphasis). I'm not making an assertion about the value of the trans person in question.

I don't understand this second avenue, either. You seem to be essentially saying that either new information is not allowed to change how you act, or you have to justify it. All information is, at some point, new, so the former is clearly unworkable and the second just leads back into my first paragraph.
I'd say what I'm primarily pointing at is that you only have to justify it if the information isn't relevant to the issue "at hand", so to speak. In the hypothetical scenario, you've got a post-op transgender who has no baggage from the transition process and will not develop any in the future. There's no connection, behaviorally or otherwise, between their previous gender and their current one. No impact on their current behavioral patterns or aesthetic appeal. Et cetera, so forth.

In this case, who they were in the past has no impact on the present and will have no impact on the future. In this case... I'm asking why would it matter and, from the other angle, how is it fundamentally different from swapping "previous gender" with "<Insert racial ancestry>"? From a similar angle, why would your partner being grossly overweight (or thin; whichever direction turns you off. Pick any aesthetic consideration, really.) or a mostly-brainwashed <insert heavily disliked ideological group> in the past matter now, if it has no impact on the present? Ties were cut, weight was loss/gained, etc., so forth, so on. If they're what you want now and the past isn't going to be butting into the present, why should it be considered?

If you're discriminating against them in the present (by removing them from romantic consideration) when that previous state has no connection to their present state, you're no longer discriminating against them (which is fine, in this case, and for a romantic partner. You're allowed to have personal tastes, of course), you're discriminating against that previous state; their transgender history, their previous weight, their ancestry, etc. You've stepped from the personal to the categorical, no long judging them as who, but instead as what.

Depending on what that "what" is, that might not be a bad thing, exactly; that's why I mentioned aesthetics specifically, as most have very little conscious control over what they find physically attractive, but why less fundamental/arbitrary measures (such as history or achievement, ferex, especially when one or both has no influence on the present time in question.) I would call into scrutiny.

Quote
I mean, I'm essentially arguing that you have an impression of somebody, learn that impression is wrong, and are not attracted to the updated impression, and that there's nothing about this that is particularly wrong - although you can certainly handle it wrongly.
Yeah, that in itself isn't necessarily a problem. It just depends on what causes the loss of attraction. You might be unable to control it, but that doesn't mean it's still not unjustified prejudice, if it's relation to a subject that prejudice requires justification. I'd call post-op transgender in particular a case where justification is required, because there's no present or future difference between them and your desired gender (other than reproductive capability, they're now identical.) and the past is a non-influence on the person in question.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:26:15 am by Frumple »
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Ogdibus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2012, 02:58:27 am »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:44:45 pm by Ogdibus »
Logged

Nilocy

  • Bay Watcher
  • Queen of a Community.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2012, 06:30:41 am »

So huh, read over all 4 pages, gotta say guise you really hatin' on the transphobia : D

But seriously, MSH does raise a valid point. Why would I want to get romantically involved with someone who I don't like. On the top that seems fine, completely. I don't like guys with beards, most guys with beards can control their beard growth expression (lololol), so y'know I'm not not denying an interest a person, I'm romantically denying their choices. Seems fair? If someone wanted to get with me I'd ask them to shave their beards etc.

Now use that same logic on transsexuals. I'm attracted to women, but not trans(read:fake)-women oh no! They chose to transition and that makes me feel icky! Yes, we chose to transition but it's not exactly something that we could've controlled. What you're saying when you say you'd treat trans women differently from ciswomen is that we're not the same. On a biological level that doesn't matter yes we are different. The biggest thing thats different is our upbringings. When you say you're attracted to a person, you're looking for attributes that you find attractive. Be it looks, personality, intelligence, viewpoints on certain subjects, hobbies and so on. Everyone does this, I get that. But what you're saying is that you're discriminating against transsexuals because of how they were brought up against their will. I didn't choose to be born male, but I was stuck with it. To use your religious example, that's like saying you'd not be romantically attracted to them if everything else fitted the bill but they were brought up Christian. Doesn't matter that they're a kind, logical, emotionally well developed person, you'd have your own prejudgements about what being religious entails and suddenly all other romantic attraction is void because of something they couldn't help with when they were a child.

Now I can get that dating a transwomen would be different to dating a ciswomen. But if you didn't know otherwise would you go out of your way to find out if they were trans? Do you wait with baited breath until that ciswomen you're dating tells you she's cis and not trans? Man, must be such a relief not to be dating a trans person. Who knows what could've happened!

Also, a lot of post-op trans women, and quite a lot of pre-ops are fucking hot. Like really really fucking hot.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 06:37:46 am by Nilocy »
Logged

Darvi

  • Bay Watcher
  • <Cript> Darvi is my wifi.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2012, 06:35:31 am »

What about bearded people who don't have ursine pets?
Logged

Nilocy

  • Bay Watcher
  • Queen of a Community.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2012, 06:38:15 am »

What about bearded people who don't have ursine pets?

Then I ask them to get a bear : P
Logged

DJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2012, 07:09:56 am »

If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a prostitute it would kill the sexual attraction because I could never get it out of my head and I'd feel all icky if we had sex. And there's always the good old soap opera scenario of finding out that the woman you're after is actually your sister. So yeah, I don't see what's so ridiculous about losing attraction for someone after getting some new information.
Logged
Urist, President has immigrated to your fortress!
Urist, President mandates the Dwarven Bill of Rights.

Cue magma.
Ah, the Magma Carta...

Ogdibus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2012, 08:24:09 am »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:45:46 pm by Ogdibus »
Logged

Virex

  • Bay Watcher
  • Subjects interest attracted. Annalyses pending...
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2012, 08:33:55 am »

If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a prostitute it would kill the sexual attraction because I could never get it out of my head and I'd feel all icky if we had sex.


While it's OK to not date a former prostitute because it makes you feel 'icky', the reason you're feeling icky is probably a form of prejudice stemming from society's view regarding sex workers and promiscuous women. As such, I don't think you should be berated for feeling that way, but I would like to ask you to recognize that they stem from a twisted cultural element, which would ideally being the first step to changing the way you're likely to feel.
Logged

GoombaGeek

  • Bay Watcher
  • Horrors! Crundles in the caverns!
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2012, 08:42:09 am »

If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a prostitute it would kill the sexual attraction because I could never get it out of my head and I'd feel all icky if we had sex.


While it's OK to not date a former prostitute because it makes you feel 'icky', the reason you're feeling icky is probably a form of prejudice stemming from society's view regarding sex workers and promiscuous women. As such, I don't think you should be berated for feeling that way, but I would like to ask you to recognize that they stem from a twisted cultural element, which would ideally being the first step to changing the way you're likely to feel.
And the fact that they're way more likely to carry veneral diseases? I think that's a major turn-off for most people.
Logged
My wooden badge was delicious.

penguinofhonor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Minister of Love
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2012, 09:08:44 am »

I'm pretty sure that's something that's easily tested.
Logged

Virex

  • Bay Watcher
  • Subjects interest attracted. Annalyses pending...
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2012, 09:42:50 am »

If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a prostitute it would kill the sexual attraction because I could never get it out of my head and I'd feel all icky if we had sex.


While it's OK to not date a former prostitute because it makes you feel 'icky', the reason you're feeling icky is probably a form of prejudice stemming from society's view regarding sex workers and promiscuous women. As such, I don't think you should be berated for feeling that way, but I would like to ask you to recognize that they stem from a twisted cultural element, which would ideally being the first step to changing the way you're likely to feel.
And the fact that they're way more likely to carry veneral diseases? I think that's a major turn-off for most people.
It's one thing to use disease frequency to make policies, but it's another thing entirely to use them to judge individual persons ;)
Logged

Nilocy

  • Bay Watcher
  • Queen of a Community.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2012, 10:05:42 am »

If I found out that a woman I was dating used to be a prostitute it would kill the sexual attraction because I could never get it out of my head and I'd feel all icky if we had sex.


While it's OK to not date a former prostitute because it makes you feel 'icky', the reason you're feeling icky is probably a form of prejudice stemming from society's view regarding sex workers and promiscuous women. As such, I don't think you should be berated for feeling that way, but I would like to ask you to recognize that they stem from a twisted cultural element, which would ideally being the first step to changing the way you're likely to feel.
And the fact that they're way more likely to carry veneral diseases? I think that's a major turn-off for most people.

Condomsssss
Logged

Kogan Loloklam

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm suffering from an acute case of Hominini Terravitae Biologis. Keep your distance!
    • View Profile
Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2012, 11:15:38 am »

I once talked to a girl who through conversation revealed that she had a fantasy of me to get her pregnant with a girl, and then raise this child, and when it turned 4 have me have sex with the child in front of her.

I was attracted to her before this information, afterward there was no way I would have sex with her. I couldn't get the image of her standing outside a circle lit with candles while an infant child was sacrificed out of my head. It doesn't matter that she'd never do that, or that this sacrifice scene wasn't even a real representation of her fantasy, it was too late.
Logged
... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 13