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Author Topic: Gender and all it entails  (Read 22912 times)

UltraValican

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2012, 11:21:13 pm »

Right... so when somebody comes out to you after you've already become attracted to them and went on a few dates, suddenly telling you their genetics are different makes it clear you were never attracted to them in the first place. Oh, and the whole, "really just men trying to look like women" bit. Maybe UltraValican had the better idea because now you just look like a transphobic asshole... Congratulations on being brave about hating on minorities.

Not like there's even a huge difference between how men and women look given the proper hormones. Estrogen does most of the work. The only definite male aspect that needs to be changed is somebody's genitals, and even then not all transwomen feel as though they necessarily need SRS (or can afford it).
Cool your jets.
We all don't know what we would do in a situation. Again, do you have to be gay to support gay marriage.? Just because I'm fine with gays dosen't mean I'll start flirting with the pool boy, and not wanting to doesn't make me Homophobic.
If this was a serious relationship, it would take some serious thought. But some people just aren't ready to take some steps. I wouldn't continue because I know I probably wouldn't commit 100% to the relationship. Not because she I think she is a man, because I know she was a man. Some people just aren't comfortable with having relationships with trans people(I'm sorry if that isn't politically correct, I don't keep up with lingo for these words anymore). As long as they don;t try to harm these peole because of that, they are perfectly fine for not wanting to continue the relationship.

Ninja Edit
@kaijyuu because I don't feel like quoting.
I meant what I said in that its a different ballgame when its you.
I would accept the idea that they are female, but I'm just not ready to say I'd be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who was a man.
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nd it's a completely superficial quality which would equally apply if a ciswoman lied to you about her birth sex. I'm not jumping too soon on anything. Your entire position on this the definition of bigotry when your "orientation" does a 180 after a transwoman's past comes to light. Sexual orientation doesn't do that. There are reasons a person can like or not like a person, but that's not sexual orientation.
Call me old fashioned, but when I pursue a relationship; I treat that person like they will be my significant other, because that in my opinion is what being in a romantic relationship is about.
Naturally, sexual orientation plays into marriage. But that's HOW I view relationships.
Also, just because you don't want to pursue a romantic relationship doesn't mean you stop liking them as a person.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:23:31 pm by UltraValican »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2012, 11:22:29 pm »

And it's a completely superficial quality which would equally apply if a ciswoman lied to you about her birth sex.
Yes, so what?
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I'm not jumping too soon on anything. Your entire position on this the definition of bigotry when your "orientation" does a 180 after a transwoman's past comes to light. Sexual orientation doesn't do that.
Who are you to tell me what my orientation can do? All I'm telling you is the truth of how I would feel in such a situation. I could never, ever be attracted to a trans-woman. I don't control that any more than I control any other thing I am attracted to, I'm just giving a description of why I think that is the case.
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There are reasons a person can like or not like a person, but that's not sexual orientation.
Wait a minute, how are you even getting to this? The only thing we were talking about until now was sexual attraction. This has nothing to do with any platonic interactions with transsexuals.
Um, dude, that's pretty much textbook transphobia. You can SAY you accept them as "really" women, but until you actually do accept them in every meaningful sense as women, that's a lie.
I think it's a little ridiculous to expect that people will just completely ignore that transsexuals are transsexuals at all, especially when we're talking about attraction.
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2012, 11:25:48 pm »

I'd just like to say that I am rather completely neutral when it comes to gender.
I'm a pansexual for one (Doesn't view physical gender as any obstacle to a relationship, but looks at the person themselves. i.e. If I happened to find somebody both attractive and they had a likeable personality I would have no problem dating them.)

I think from a more "logic over emotion" perspective so discriminating by physical gender seems more then a little silly to me, I treat both equally making little distinction between the two.
So more or less you could say the "person" is all that even matters to me.

It's a little tricky to explain overall but basically I do think "he is male" but I don't think "He should be masculine", I think "She is female" but not "she should be feminine"
When it comes to dating I would simply go out with somebody who I find likeable. (Not to say I don't feel differing levels of attraction to males or females, in fact I would be hard pressed to find a male I was attracted to, I'm just saying if I did I would have no issue dating them)

Damn, that was kinda rambly but hopefully you guys get the point.




In MetalSlimeHunt's defense it is entirely understandable to not like a MtF but like born-females, it's more a psychological thing and doesn't even come close to making him a bigot. He just simply doesn't like MtF's and does not relish the thought of being with one, and may even feel annoyed that they didn't inform him sooner in the relationship. Not saying they have to advertise it, I'm just saying it's completely 100% understandable that somebody could dislike transgendered people even if they learned of it after getting into a relationship.

I mean, say one of you dated somebody for a few months, you thought they were totally cool, then you found out that they [x thing you REALLY hate in a person], you would probably at least consider breaking up with them over it, that's all it is. It's just something MetalSlimeHunt really doesn't like.
(In short, you don't hate on somebody for breaking up with their lover after discovering they had a trait the person didn't like. If you do then that kinda shows that maybe you're kinda leaning to the opposite extreme of bigotry, which is just as bad really.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:27:37 pm by bombzero »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 11:29:11 pm »

In MetalSlimeHunt's defense it is entirely understandable to not like a MtF but like born-females, it's more a psychological thing and doesn't even come close to making him a bigot. He just simply doesn't like MtF's and does not relish the thought of being with one, and may even feel annoyed that they didn't inform him sooner in the relationship. Not saying they have to advertise it, I'm just saying it's completely 100% understandable that somebody could dislike transgendered people even if they learned of it after getting into a relationship.

I mean, say one of you dated somebody for a few months, you thought they were totally cool, then you found out that they [x thing you REALLY hate in a person], you would probably at least consider breaking up with them over it, that's all it is. It's just something MetalSlimeHunt really doesn't like.
(In short, you don't hate on somebody for breaking up with their lover after discovering they were say... devoutly religious. If you do then that kinda shows that maybe you're kinda leaning to the opposite extreme of bigotry, which is just as bad really.)
Now hold on a moment, when I say I don't like MtFs I mean I don't like them in the sexual sense, not any other sense. It isn't the same thing as finding out as your other is religious, because that's not a non-voluntary quality at all. Have we had some kind of communication breakdown here?
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 11:30:26 pm »


Now hold on a moment, when I say I don't like MtFs I mean I don't like them in the sexual sense, not any other sense. It isn't the same thing as finding out as your other is religious, because that's not a non-voluntary quality at all. Have we had some kind of communication breakdown here?
No I'm just terrible at explaining things, I already changed the post to remove the religion bit but, simply put I understand what your issue with the situation is and don't find it anywhere close to bigotry. (this coming from somebody who finds bigotry excessively irritating)
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2012, 11:59:06 pm »

Now hold on a moment, when I say I don't like MtFs I mean I don't like them in the sexual sense, not any other sense. It isn't the same thing as finding out as your other is religious, because that's not a non-voluntary quality at all. Have we had some kind of communication breakdown here?

Not from my end, since that's exactly why I'm calling you transphobic. You can't like somebody in a sexual way and then suddenly not like them in the same way unless there's something else going on. Your protestations are just as hollow as somebody who's friends with a gay person right up until they find out that person is gay. The qualities which led to friendship/attraction haven't disappeared, but rather a new quality has appeared and you don't know how to deal with it. Instead you just tell yourself that you couldn't actually love a transwoman, with an implicit "because you're not really a woman" thrown in for good measure.

So... not really disproving anything I say. Maybe you should ask yourself what in particular about them disclosing their past does to whatever made you connect sexually in the first place (instead of pretending it's automagically different). As far as I know, DNA is transferred during sex, but we don't seek out partners based on it unless the goal to that relationship is super babies.

And don't even respond if you're just going to keep claiming that you're not transphobic while being the definition of transphobic with regards to selection of your partners... I'm not going to deal with that sort of non-productive circular bullshit.

We all don't know what we would do in a situation. Again, do you have to be gay to support gay marriage.? Just because I'm fine with gays dosen't mean I'll start flirting with the pool boy, and not wanting to doesn't make me Homophobic.

Not even the same thing dude, which should've been obvious from the context of the discussion. Gay people are sexually attracted to primarily male features, lesbians are sexually attracted to primarily female features, bisexuals have attraction which can work with either set of traits, but how does one suddenly STOP being sexually attracted to somebody when new information comes to light that doesn't change those features? Even in the case that you thought a cis dude was a woman due to only seeing him from the back while he was crossdressing or something, that doesn't invalidate that those features you originally found attractive were real. And claiming to be attracted to invisible shit like genetics is clearly nonsense, so where does that leave your claim? You don't just decide to be attracted to anyone, that's an innate quality. MSH would have just as strong a claim if he decided he wasn't sexually attracted (in a natural orientation sense) to a woman when he learned she played tennis, or was religious, or whatever other superficial reason. And in the case of transwoman his only reason to deny sexual attraction is her transness. You guys keep trying to worm your way out of it but the logical endpoint remains the same.
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2012, 12:12:43 am »

To add a weird flipside to the whole transphobia thing... I'm a heterosexual male, and tend to get along well with and prefer the company of women to men. I'm fairly effeminate, or at least somewhere in the hazy grey line between binary Gender roles... protective of people I care about, but preferring to work things out diplomatically as opposed to physical aggression. I find myself attracted to more "masculine" women, with a tendency for kind, intelligent gals who have a strong aggressive streak. Though I've been open to the idea, I've never really felt attracted to masculine men, effeminate men, or "girly" women either. I run into some trouble when I'm in guy-space (say, a primarily male crowd at a sports bar) since I really don't know how to fit in or get by there. All in all, I don't think I fit cleanly into any gender I can identify, but I really don't feel a need to; I know what I like, and I know who I am, and I'm comfortable with that.

Anyway, the one time I've felt somewhat attracted to a guy I really admired, I later discovered he was FtM transgendered, and biologically female. I felt weird after that, because it suddenly made me question my bisexuality. I sometimes wonder if being attracted to him was just something biological, or something about the fact that his personality didn't neatly fit into a gender role... or maybe it was just the fact that he was uncommonly awesome? Who knows!
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Bauglir

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2012, 12:15:16 am »

That article Glowcat posted is a good one. While, unfortunately, it doesn't have a concrete answer as I was hoping for, it does reaffirm the opinion I already had that there doesn't really have to be one.

Gender roles are a very, very grey area for me. As a concept, I don't really have a tremendous problem with them, but there are a huge number of caveats that go with that statement. Current western society, by and large, has a conception of them that is unacceptable to me, as I see it. The absolute most important thing for an acceptable system of gender roles is that they must be flexible, and fuzzily defined. You can't have people telling others that their identity is "wrong", and you can't have a particular characteristic that is absolutely, 100% assigned to one gender. The roles as they exist are also unfair; generally, women find themselves in subservient roles, and while women have a relatively fuzzy enforcement of their gender roles, the acceptable roles are very narrow, and there are still some things that it's just plain expected will be true of any woman. Men, while typically winding up in relative positions of power and with a broad range of roles to assume, have a very sharp enforcement of the roles they are allowed, meaning that a man who steps out of what's acceptable receives very strong and clear criticism (I could write an essay on the problems this asymmetry causes when trying to discuss sexism).

To address one particular complaint, I don't object to children being assigned to a gender group as an unfair imposition by parents and, on a larger scale, society, on the child's ability to develop and grow freely. Parents have to structure a child's identity as the child grows to fill it. That's just part of being a parent. It's why I don't object to religious teachings, family recipes, holidays spent with the extended family, children moving with their parents to new cities, and so on. The objections start only when parents refuse to accept the child's input; it needs to be a dialogue in which the child grows, and you have to be willing to accept that perhaps your child will want to make their own decisions (indeed, the ultimate goal of parenting is to prepare the child to do exactly that).

At any rate, I feel like the absolute most crucial thing to remember is that a person can never be told that they are wrong about their identity (disclaimer: not addressing corner cases here, I guess, just try not to be a douchebag). They know it better than anybody else does. If you start from the position that there is a Right Answer and everything else is a Wrong Answer, you're never going to learn anything about anyone else - you'll just learn slightly more effective ways to arrange the stereotypes you started with.

Regarding MSH's position - I actually share it, and it's for exactly the same reason I agree that that article Glowcat linked is a good one that I think it's defensible. If part of your sexual identity, however you arrived at it, includes some particular turn-off, who the hell is anyone else to tell you that you're wrong for having it? We're not talking about some logically arrived-at conclusion - sexual identities are tremendously complicated amalgams of experience and inheritance, every bit as ineffable as, "I am a woman." And remember, you don't need a reason to revoke consent. At best, it's polite to give one.

EDIT: I want to clarify what I said about children making decisions. It's not exactly a good choice of terminology, but I want to leave it for posterity and to avoid looking like a weasel if anybody replies to it while I'm typing this. In retrospect, I should have kept to the growth terminology and described the child developing an identity that doesn't conform to the confines of the structure provided by the parent. I do know that there's a hell of a lot here that isn't deliberate choice - I'm just tired and falling into old vocabulary patterns out of a habit I really need to grow out of.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:30:28 am by Bauglir »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2012, 12:16:12 am »

Not from my end, since that's exactly why I'm calling you transphobic. You can't like somebody in a sexual way and then suddenly not like them in the same way unless there's something else going on.
Why not?
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Maybe you should ask yourself what in particular about them disclosing their past does to whatever made you connect sexually in the first place (instead of pretending it's automagically different).
What it does is that it removes the quality that I am attracted to by revealing that they were once physically male, which is not a quality that I am attracted to. As I already said.
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And don't even respond if you're just going to keep claiming that you're not transphobic while being the definition of transphobic with regards to selection of your partners... I'm not going to deal with that sort of non-productive circular bullshit.
Your hostility is completely unwarranted.
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Not even the same thing dude, which should've been obvious from the context of the discussion. Gay people are sexually attracted to primarily male features, lesbians are sexually attracted to primarily female features, bisexuals have attraction which can work with either set of traits, but how does one suddenly STOP being sexually attracted to somebody when new information comes to light that doesn't change those features?
Because one's attraction does not rely solely upon physical features alone and can extend to other qualities, even an individual's history. Your definitions of sexuality are quite rigid and absolute.
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And in the case of transwoman his only reason to deny sexual attraction is her transness. You guys keep trying to worm your way out of it but the logical endpoint remains the same.
But that's exactly what I said, I'm not worming out of that. What, am I required to be sexually attracted to transness now? Would you like me to lie and act like someone I'm not for the sake of your closed system of definitions?

Not being sexually attracted to X does not make you a hater of X. Can you not see that line?
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2012, 12:55:35 am »

Regarding MSH's position - I actually share it, and it's for exactly the same reason I agree that that article Glowcat linked is a good one. If part of your sexual identity, however you arrived at it, includes some particular turn-off, who the hell is anyone else to tell you that you're wrong for having it? We're not talking about some logically arrived-at conclusion - sexual identities are tremendously complicated amalgams of experience and inheritance, every bit as ineffable as, "I am a woman." And remember, you don't need a reason to revoke consent. At best, it's polite to give one.

Maybe if this were all taking place in a vacuum. But I find it far more likely that MSH's apprehension is due to, as has slipped through his writing in the thread a few times, seeing trans people as fake and ultimately comes from a position of still seeing transwomen as men. He has a right to it but it's no less transphobic than it's not-racist to suddenly not be attracted to somebody because you found out their recent ancestors were Amerindians or something. It doesn't even mean he's transphobic about everything, but when it comes to his own partner selection I do indeed find his process to be bigoted.

If he originally cast his issues more along the lines of it being a relationship deal-breaker rather than some kind of natural inclination of his sexual orientation I'd still find him superficial but I wouldn't be angry about it as I am now. Playing up the importance of such a minor aspect of a person diminishes everything about them and reduces them to a single descriptor which is apparently all he needs to not be attracted anymore. I'm sorry if I'm not really convinced that it's as important to his attraction as he's making it out to be. To me it sounds more like the typical bullshit surrounding the conversation about trans relationships, with the same kind of position which regularly erupts into violence when a transwoman discloses to a person who found her attractive before she told him about her past (not even always after sex). There's a lot more baggage entering this conversation than simply a declaration of not being attracted.
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Frumple

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2012, 01:00:20 am »

MSH, if it helps any, what they're saying is that the reasoning you're using is very similar to the one that goes, "Well, I've got nothing against <insert culturally appropriate race; it'd be black where I'm at> people, but I wouldn't be marrying (/letting my child marry) one." Alternately, it'd be kinda' like looking at a picture of your (highly desirable) considered from a decade back, finding them to have been grossly overweight, then, and deciding that makes them no longer attractive to you now.

If it'd be a deal-breaker with someone who is physically what you want, now, and in other ways eminently desirable, then... yeah, you're still not comfortable with the idea of transexuality, on a personal/emotional level. Because, despite self-identifying as their current gender and physically matching their current gender in every single way that matters, you don't consider them to be that gender. But rather some other category, which you find undesirable because of what they were, not what they are.

Doesn't mean you're going to go out and burn th'op clinics or whatev', but yeah, you can label that as mild transphobia, or something related to the concept. If you wanted to be otherwise, no, you wouldn't be required to be attracted to post-op transexuals, the transition would just have to be a non-issue, should everything else be in order. It could be an aesthetic thing (there's nothing inherently troublesome with preferring certain skin tones, ferex, though it often rides on other things), but only if there's an actual aesthetic difference between the post-op in question and anyone else of their gender -- and that wouldn't require knowledge of the transition to affect partner selection.

Ninja'd a bit by GC, yeah.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2012, 01:07:25 am »

Maybe if this were all taking place in a vacuum. But I find it far more likely that MSH's apprehension is due to, as has slipped through his writing in the thread a few times, seeing trans people as fake and ultimately comes from a position of still seeing transwomen as men.
So it comes down to conspiracy, then. We can't talk about this if you're coming into it with a pre-decided agenda about my motives.
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It doesn't even mean he's transphobic about everything, but when it comes to his own partner selection I do indeed find his process to be bigoted.
Bigotry, by definition, can't apply to partner selection alone. I think you'd even agree with that statement, just in the sense that you suspect me of some horrible secret rather than the simple truth that I don't have an attraction to trans people and there's nothing else to it.
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Playing up the importance of such a minor aspect of a person diminishes everything about them and reduces them to a single descriptor which is apparently all he needs to not be attracted anymore.
Maybe it's minor to you, but I'm not you.
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To me it sounds more like the typical bullshit surrounding the conversation about trans relationships, with the same kind of position which regularly erupts into violence when a transwoman discloses to a person who found her attractive before she told him about her past (not even always after sex).
What the hell. You can't just accuse me of violence-by-proxy like that.
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There's a lot more baggage entering this conversation than simply a declaration of not being attracted.
Your baggage is skewing everything I say into something I'm not saying. How can you expect this conversation to function if you won't take me at my word?
MSH, if it helps any, what they're saying is that the reasoning you're using is very similar to the one that goes, "Well, I've got nothing against <insert culturally appropriate race; it'd be black where I'm at> people, but I wouldn't be marrying (/letting my child marry) one."
Firstly, applying that to one's self and one's children are very different things. The first can be an honest expression of lacking attraction, the second would almost certainly betray some kind of prejudice against black people.

Secondly, if I were hypothetically not romantically attracted to black people, why would I ever be marrying a black person? That doesn't imply prejudice, it implies sanity. You'd have to be really strange to marry someone who exhibits a quality which by its very presence precludes your attraction to them.
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Bauglir

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2012, 01:16:52 am »

I mean, I suppose that a few additional pieces of information about the position are important.

Does this new information make the past experiences meaningless, or do they retain their emotional value? I believe the latter to be so; the fact that new information modifies my impression of the person in question does not mean that my feelings about the prior impression were any less real.

In what context are we using the word "woman"? Given the ambiguity of the situation here, I think it's worth clarifying - for instance, if MSH were using the word solely in the context of how he defines sexual attraction, it boils down to being a placeholder for "a person possessing qualities relating to gender and sex which I, as a heterosexual male, find attractive", and wouldn't necessarily indicate any lesser status of womanhood in the context of that person's own identity because that's not the same conception of womanhood that the woman in question possesses for herself. In this sort of discussion, it's very, very easy to misspeak in this way while believing oneself to be speaking very clearly - there isn't a sufficiently wide vocabulary in English to capture the degree of nuance necessary here, so intents can be muddled in the act of communication.

Is the woman to be blamed for this part of her identity, or is it to be regarded with the same degree of moral or ethical weight as whether or not the sky is cloudy on a particular day? I believe the latter, since it is absurd to assign blame to people for being themselves - they can hardly do otherwise. I don't think, though, that it's therefore right to say that I should welcome the cloudy day for its own merits. They certainly have merits! But if that wasn't what I was hoping for, surely I can reasonably be unhappy about it without the necessity of assigning blame or believing in obligation. Perhaps it would be better for my disposition if I took joy in what was, and quite likely I would once I got over the initial disappointment, but that doesn't mean the initial reaction was wrong.

It could be an aesthetic thing (there's nothing inherently troublesome with preferring certain skin tones, ferex, though it often rides on other things), but only if there's an actual aesthetic difference between the post-op in question and anyone else of their gender -- and that wouldn't require knowledge of the transition to affect partner selection.
Aesthetics are the only acceptable arbitrary criteria for sexual preferences? Am I not allowed to have taste in personality, history, intellect, achievement...
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Frumple

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2012, 01:32:25 am »

Aesthetics are the only acceptable arbitrary criteria for sexual preferences? Am I not allowed to have taste in personality, history, intellect, achievement...
No, of course not, but it's the only one I can think of that'd be particularly applicable to a post-op transgender that you'd otherwise be attracted to, if not for that one bit that has no impact on the present situation. If there was baggage of some sort or the transition process did something notable behavioral wise, then yeah, you've got grounds to discriminate "prejudice free", so to speak, but if they're otherwise completely well adjusted and representative of your desired gender (and, for this hypothetical case, will continue to be so into the future)... where's the grounds for discrimination? You've got history, but it's history that has no impact or connection to the present. It's pretty parallel to what GC brought up about finding out your partner has native american ancestry, or finding out they were raised as a member of a particularly loathsome group (Let's say th'West-whatever Baptist Church), despite them having cut ties and left as soon as possible and the experience having zero impact or influence on the way they are now, and then breaking it off because of that.

And yeah, that's basically my response to MSH's second question. It's not that you're not attracted, it's that the prejudice gets in the way of it. It's fine not to be attracted to dark skin tones or african phenotypes, but if you are, and there's no other factors involved (which, with a post-op transexual, there wouldn't be), but you still refuse them as a potential partner because they've got african ancestry... then yeah, that's not sanity, that's prejudice.
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2012, 01:33:40 am »

Quote
To me it sounds more like the typical bullshit surrounding the conversation about trans relationships, with the same kind of position which regularly erupts into violence when a transwoman discloses to a person who found her attractive before she told him about her past (not even always after sex).
What the hell. You can't just accuse me of violence-by-proxy like that.

Since it's possible that I could've worded that better let me be clear: I'm not accusing you of the violence itself but rather entrenching a suspect view (due to how minor a point it actually is in reality while being a huge thing culturally) which does serve as a justification for violence, based entirely on a bloated importance of a woman's transness when there's clearly an undertone of the guy freaking out because... he's somehow worried that he's gay or something? Like it's the transwoman's fault he was attracted to her and acted as such. Your own part in this is distant, its contribution being more along the lines of background noise.

As for the rest of the argument, I'm done until there's an avenue for actual development instead of bickering. I don't accuse you of underlying motives without such being based on the evidence you've provided so far and you're strongly reading in a typical "I'm not an X, but..." manner. If you have a hard time understanding where I'm coming from then just read what I've already posted or do your own research. I feel like I've derailed this thread for long enough as it is just to tackle that sort of microaggression and the clockwork predictable response to my pointing it out. You don't have to be a complete asshole to do problematic things at times and I hope you realize why I'm coming strongly against you on this. If you're uncomfortable being in a romantic relationship with somebody who was once a man then alright, but don't cast it as some kind of natural attraction that shouldn't be questioned. Not in this cultural environment.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 01:46:15 am by Glowcat »
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Totally a weretrain. Very much trains!
I'm going to steamroll this house.
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