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Author Topic: Gender and all it entails  (Read 23042 times)

Virex

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2012, 03:00:00 pm »

@Virex
I'll try to be clearer. Do I decide? Not "Do I decide?", which is what you answered.
Ah, that's a different question entirely. No, you do not decide in the sense that you just tell yourself to change and you're done. It takes time and some thinking to get rid of problematic notions ingrained in us through society (and it's not a fail-safe process either, since society has a tendency to drag you back down). The first step, however, is to recognize that these notions exist and that they're undesirable. It's kind of like with fixing shyness or learning to drink coffee. You first need to realize something exists, then that it needs to be changed and then you need to implement the ultimate conclusions of that idea in your life, in defiance of your instinct to stick to your previous feelings.[/quote]
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2012, 03:00:16 pm »

@GlowCat
I agree, "natural orientation" has nothing to do with the actual person, and everything to do with your perception. It's the same for every type of attraction - the best you can do is realize that your perception is not the authority on who it is right for that person to be. I can't argue, for instance, that the woman who transitioned from being a man is wrong for having done so on the basis that I didn't expect it. I'm of the belief that sexual preference is based on factors as deeply complicated as gender identity, which is why I don't think that there's good cause for insisting that some are wrong because they can't be justified, or because they don't result in attraction to a given individual.

I really wish it really were as simple as that, but the issue I take with such stances is that how in our society it's simply taken for granted that one can't be attracted to a trans person (implied or outright stated: because they're really their original sex). In this particular cultural environment I do believe it's entirely reasonable to question that underlying assumption since there's an actively promoted prejudice against transwoman that fits into this declaration. It's an issue that cis people might not relate to because they don't have to try and prove their gender to anyone but it plays a huge part in the power dynamics which perpetrate discrimination against transsexual people.
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DJ

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2012, 03:12:48 pm »

Being sexually attractive to someone is not a right. To flip it, how bigoted would it sound if I said a women who isn't attracted to me is morally wrong?
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2012, 03:15:42 pm »

Being sexually attractive to someone is not a right. To flip it, how bigoted would it sound if I said a women who isn't attracted to me is morally wrong?

Your analogy isn't even close to the same thing as a socially entrenched assumption about who you'd be attracted to...
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Virex

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2012, 03:43:57 pm »

Hey guys, bigotry is a two-way street. Typically with the actual bigots and the "Anti-bigots", the ones who take the opposite extreme.

The black man who expects government loans for being black is as much a bigot as the white man who believes black people should leave America.
The gay man who thinks straight people are evil is just as much a bigot as the straight man who hates gays.
The "feminists" who think Women are the betters of society are just as much of bigots as the "masculinists" who believe men are superior.

I don't entirely agree with your reasoning. You're right in identifying that there's a scale on which people can lie. However, you make 3 assumptions that I do not agree with.
First of all, you assume that the 'common extremes' on the scale are close to the true extremes. For that to be true, there would have to be just as many female supremacists as male supremacists. But, even though I admit I used to be of the later brand (don't worry, I got better) for some time, I am the only person I know or have spoken to that actually has claimed that women are better than men. Likewise, I know plenty of people that don't like gays at all, even in the Netherlands, yet I have yet to meet a gay person that openly hates straight people. Now, as a result of this, your idea of the extremes seems to have shifted, and you equate, for example, violent misogynists with feminists critical of modern culture. I don't think it's fair to equate the extreme on one side with a reasonably moderate viewpoint on the other side just because they're equally common and on opposite sides of the scale.

Your second assumption is that the ideal lies somewhere in the middle. We can agree that the extremes are undesirable, of course, but that doesn't mean that the most desirable position is smack-dab in the center. This would be true in a vacuum, but a vacuum sucks all content out of an idea. In our current society, for example, black people face a lot of prejudice. So, life in general is already lopsided for them on that scale. Sitting in the center would do nothing for them because then you neither stimulate nor oppose racism, while the latter is much more beneficial to everyone then doing nothing at all.

Your last assumption is that either side of the scale has the same weight. So what if a black person hates whities? Black people are already disadvantaged and, in general, taken less serious than whities, so their hate is not likely to have a lot of lasting impact. It may be uncomfortable, true, and therefor not recommendable, but is a bit of discomfort really that problematic in the face of what said black person probably has experienced? Add to that the point that your idea of the center is probably not truly the center and that it is very hard for anyone to see what the true center would be (blame our culture), and I don't think you should judge a black person that doesn't like whities at the same rate as a KKK member.


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Affirmative action programs are bigoted laws.
NAACP is a bigoted organization, if they were also violent towards whites they would be as bad as the KKK.
The fact that businesses want people to learn Spanish in a predominantly English speaking community just to cater to a few, likely illegal, immigrants from Mexico is just as bigoted as the guy who thinks the immigrants should be forced to learn English.
It's unsettling that you shove 12% of the US population under the denominator "likely illegal immigrant." That aside, you seem awfully protective of the majority culture in the face of groups and laws that don't even threaten it. So what if people are requested to learn a second language? It improves communication both with a significant part of society and with some of the most important trade partners of the US. So what if the NAACP is critical of majority culture? It's not majority culture that constantly has to fight for it's ground in the face groups like the GOP. So what if some laws prefer disadvantaged people over the rest? The fact that those people are disadvantaged means they need help most and keeping that away from them is just callous.

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In fact, "bigotry" is any preconceived hatred or dislike, or feeling of superiority over, a group for a characteristic, usually one out of their control. Meaning the ones who feel it is wrong to not like a trans-women after learning of it, is no better then the one who thinks it's wrong to like them at all.
Hooooly hell, you're stepping over power differences, discrimination and a lopsided majority culture really fast here.
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However, "anti-bigotry" is almost always excused under explanations that are clearly irritating to anyone under the so called "majority" group.
Because god forbid that a member of the majority would be annoyed by a person from a minority group trying to improve the situation for her group? Fuck those people, they don't deserve a better life, right?

You seem to think that anti-bigotry is something people do because they want to troll you. But considering the kind of flack you usually get for being critical of the majority (something that I have not experienced strongly personally, but I've seen plenty of it happen to others), I'd say anyone doing it to be contrary would be sick of it really fast. So there must be something else driving people... I'll let you fill in what that means.

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MetalSlimeHunt was towards the center of the "scales", he wasn't acting like a bigot, and he had nothing against transgendered people themselves but simply the fact that he didn't want to be in a physical or romantic relationship with one as it made him uncomfortable. He is simply one of the "majority".
In fact, those who argued against him presented behavior much closer to the "anti-bigot", an equal evil, by thinking him wrong for not being attracted to someone based on their physical history he was previously unaware of.
Is it really evil to want to shift the center? I believe everyone would be better of if preconceived notions about trans* people would vanish from our culture and people would be no longer indoctrinated by society to think of trans* people in this way. Fuck me for dreaming of a better society, right?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:51:49 pm by Virex »
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2012, 04:05:08 pm »

Fine, let's start over. My name is Bombzero and I Have an insane ability to utterly piss of people who I actually mostly agree with simply because I suck at examples.
I get a little bit pissed off as I am a white, middle-classish male living in Texas, and despite not being a racist, mysoginist, or general bigot myself I am occasionally put at a disadvantage to people who were somehow discriminated against by other white people at some point in history, on account of my ethniticity.

I am occasionally put at a societal disadvantage, and discriminated against in some situations, and by some groups, because of my ethnicity and gender. Sound familiar?
I hate the groups that think all males are superior as much as the groups who think females are superior, and I hate the groups that think minorities deserve more rights as much as the ones who think they deserve less, BECAUSE, this "supporting the 'oppressed'" type of attitude simply makes the "bigot's" point look more valid, fueling the conflict even further.

In a proper world neither side would exist because both are terrible in their own way.


What REALLY, pisses me off is somehow being a white male seems to FORBID me from being discriminated against according to society at large, regardless of what the actual situation is.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 04:07:38 pm by bombzero »
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Psyco Jelly

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2012, 04:44:09 pm »

As someone who studies biology, I know that there are differences between men and women. Unfortunately, it's hard to talk to people who aren't biologists about these differences without people thinking you're an asshole. I'm male, I identify as male because I enjoy the sorts of things associated with it. I've met transwomen (no transmen yet) that have seemed like absolutely wonderful people, I've been given funny looks by friends for hanging around one, even lost a girlfriend because of it. I've also met some absolutely odious transwomen that seem to try and define themselves by their gender, and usually more that masculinity is a bad thing.

Really, I think everyone needs something to define themselves by, but I think gender is a very obnoxious one to choose. Outrageously feminine men and outrageously masculine women  bother me if they seem to want to be identified that way, but so do outrageously masculine men and feminine women. That one play about Oscar Wilde is a really amazing way to look at it, and even though it's more about homosexuality than actual transgenderedness, it's concepts about identification and personality still holds true amazingly well.
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Virex

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2012, 04:45:01 pm »

You can't change society without, well, changing some things we used to take for granted. I understand that you get pissed, hell I can get pissed sometimes as well, but there are a lot more cases in which someone else is getting pissed because they were passed up on for man or a white person.
However, opposing anti-bigotry carries the problem that only a very small part of it actually serves solely to harm the majority (I'll refer to that as SAWCASMs further on, for Straight Able-bodied, White, Cis, Afluent, Men). In most cases, SAWCASMs being disadvantaged is but a side effect of people trying to improve the position of a disadvantaged group. Opposing that would be an advantage to us, because we're no longer annoyed, but it comes at the cost of halting progress for other groups. The other, more humane option would be t bite through and focusing on eradicating standard bigotry, because then there will be no need for anti-bigotry any more (you don't see anyone fighting for the right to work or vote, now do you?)
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2012, 04:48:43 pm »

You can't change society without, well, changing some things we used to take for granted. I understand that you get pissed, hell I can get pissed sometimes as well, but there are a lot more cases in which someone else is getting pissed because they were passed up on for man or a white person.
However, opposing anti-bigotry carries the problem that only a very small part of it actually serves solely to harm the majority (I'll refer to that as SAWCASMs further on, for Straight Able-bodied, White, Cis, Afluent, Men). In most cases, SAWCASMs being disadvantaged is but a side effect of people trying to improve the position of a disadvantaged group. Opposing that would be an advantage to us, because we're no longer annoyed, but it comes at the cost of halting progress for other groups. The other, more humane option would be t bite through and focusing on eradicating standard bigotry, because then there will be no need for anti-bigotry any more (you don't see anyone fighting for the right to work or vote, now do you?)

Sounds a good bit more reasonable.
The only problem comes from the fact that nobody is willing to "cut through" and solve bigotry by eliminating it, they all just casually support "anti-bigotry" so to speak.

It goes double for the politicians that instate such matters to law for the pure purpose of looking "better" to the general public, but that's going even further off topic so yeah...


As someone who studies biology, I know that there are differences between men and women. Unfortunately, it's hard to talk to people who aren't biologists about these differences without people thinking you're an asshole. I'm male, I identify as male because I enjoy the sorts of things associated with it. I've met transwomen (no transmen yet) that have seemed like absolutely wonderful people, I've been given funny looks by friends for hanging around one, even lost a girlfriend because of it. I've also met some absolutely odious transwomen that seem to try and define themselves by their gender, and usually more that masculinity is a bad thing.

Really, I think everyone needs something to define themselves by, but I think gender is a very obnoxious one to choose. Outrageously feminine men and outrageously masculine women  bother me if they seem to want to be identified that way, but so do outrageously masculine men and feminine women. That one play about Oscar Wilde is a really amazing way to look at it, and even though it's more about homosexuality than actual transgenderedness, it's concepts about identification and personality still holds true amazingly well.
You're going to get bitched at for this post more then likely, just a friendly warning.
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Psyco Jelly

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2012, 04:52:03 pm »

As someone who studies biology, I know that there are differences between men and women. Unfortunately, it's hard to talk to people who aren't biologists about these differences without people thinking you're an asshole. I'm male, I identify as male because I enjoy the sorts of things associated with it. I've met transwomen (no transmen yet) that have seemed like absolutely wonderful people, I've been given funny looks by friends for hanging around one, even lost a girlfriend because of it. I've also met some absolutely odious transwomen that seem to try and define themselves by their gender, and usually more that masculinity is a bad thing.

Really, I think everyone needs something to define themselves by, but I think gender is a very obnoxious one to choose. Outrageously feminine men and outrageously masculine women  bother me if they seem to want to be identified that way, but so do outrageously masculine men and feminine women. That one play about Oscar Wilde is a really amazing way to look at it, and even though it's more about homosexuality than actual transgenderedness, it's concepts about identification and personality still holds true amazingly well.
You're going to get bitched at for this post more then likely, just a friendly warning.

It's my opinion, and to be honest I'm ready for people to punch holes in it. I can't be right without being wrong first. I'm actually here to see if I need to rethink it.
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2012, 04:56:33 pm »

It's my opinion, and to be honest I'm ready for people to punch holes in it. I can't be right without being wrong first. I'm actually here to see if I need to rethink it.
True, I was just letting you know based on my observations about the general attitude in this thread at the moment being a little hostile. People are more likely to interpret an "enemy" where there really isn't one.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2012, 05:55:40 pm »

To be honest, I really don't understand the concept of gender as opposed to physical sex and sexual attraction. I'm physically male, and I'm attracted to females. There's nothing beyond that. I don't feel male or female any more than I feel lemon, or hydrogen. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Glowcat

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2012, 05:56:10 pm »

It's my opinion, and to be honest I'm ready for people to punch holes in it. I can't be right without being wrong first. I'm actually here to see if I need to rethink it.

Without knowing more about what you see as differences between male and female I can't really comment. There are absolutely differences either due to pre-birth hormones or otherwise, and it's certainly plausible that certain traits do appear from the sexual dimorphism (when not counting naturally intersex people), but there are also poorly founded views out there which attempt to claim far more than what the evidence shows. But when it comes to gender we primarily judge by outward physical features and that's where a lot of the issues become muddy because a lot of what people believe to be purely masculine/feminine features do sometimes cross, creating normative views based on physical gender which don't adequately account for reality.

Neither is there really anything to disagree with about certain trans people taking social norms and running with them to extremes while condemning other trans people who deviate from the standard they believe to be necessary (see HBS transwomen). It's nothing new. There are women who hold misogynistic views, there are trans people with internalized transphobia, and so on and so forth.

It's my opinion, and to be honest I'm ready for people to punch holes in it. I can't be right without being wrong first. I'm actually here to see if I need to rethink it.
True, I was just letting you know based on my observations about the general attitude in this thread at the moment being a little hostile. People are more likely to interpret an "enemy" where there really isn't one.

I'm not dumb enough to not realize by "people", you mean me (and possibly Virex/Frumple?). Knock off that passive-aggressive crap please. And if you can't see why you're being considered "an enemy" then that's on you and your inability to see where we're coming from. Everything you've posted so far is trite in the wider discourse of social justice and it's clear that you don't understand much of what you deem anti-bigotry. Certain measures are actually necessary to address longtime inequalities that either once were or continue today. One can't simply pretend that everybody is on an equal playing field without that stance itself being for the reinforcement of social inequity. It's clear from your posting that you're one of those who does not understand WHY discrimination coming from a majority person is very different from that of a minority person. The former's prejudice is backed by powerful institutions and give legitimate probable fears to minorities effected. At most minority people can cause harm on an individual level. It's the society-wide ramifications that make actions by majority people more problematic than the discrimination which occurs in the other direction.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:58:15 pm by Glowcat »
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GoombaGeek

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2012, 06:04:32 pm »

I'm not dumb enough to not realize by "people", you mean me (and possibly Virex/Frumple?). Knock off that passive-aggressive crap please. And if you can't see why you're being considered "an enemy" then that's on you and your inability to see where we're coming from.
"Stop being so passive-aggressive!"
"Also, you're too stupid to tell!"

Well, that solves half the equation.
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bombzero

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Re: Gender and all it entails
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2012, 06:07:58 pm »

I'm not dumb enough to not realize by "people", you mean me (and possibly Virex/Frumple?).

Actually I really did mean nobody in particular, let alone remember what your username was at the time.
I meant that people like to perceive anyone who doesn't agree with them 100% as an "enemy" whenever the current climate is leaning towards hostile.

I already explained to you that I am simply terrible at explaining stuff but you refuse to listen and keep calling on examples I already acknowledged as poor representatives of my actual beliefs to argue against me.

The fact that you perceived an insult from that post just reinforces it's point. Because you consider yourself "against me" you assume that I am "against you".


Fucking hell, I should have known posting anything contrary to the exact beliefs of the OP and his supporters would do nothing but cause rampant flaming.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 06:09:53 pm by bombzero »
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