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[mainiac]

What do you aim to show by this?  That I say the same things in private as in public but do so with less delicacy?  The ambitions that you "reveal" are the same ambitions that I have made public of my own free will.  I believe I was unfairly slighted when you gained control of Leminkainen without Hawkwood rendering compensation.  I wish to correct that slight.  I desire to rectify the matter without bloodshed.

You accuse me of dishonor but you do not even finish the accusation before your own treachery shines through.  What we can see here is simple enough.  Two noble houses negotiating.  One shows good faith.  The other betrays that good faith as soon as he sees profit in it.

Hawkwood apparently values trust less then a pittance and honor not at all.

((Well this is heating up )

[Azthor]

You left your capital unguarded... tsk tsk.

Imagine the damage that a player could do in a single turn using the imperial eye.  Right off the bat he could capture and disband 6000 firebirds worth of your gems.  He could capture your palace, factory, fort, church and lab.  He could then churn out heavy infantry in the imperial eye fort while you can only build militia in response because counter attacks will disrupt any factor or fort production.

All in all you could be left scrambling for control of your homeworld.  Oh but wait, it seems that the player with the imperial eye has an agreement with the player controlling the imperial fleet.  Gee, hope you can bring enough forces to bear for you to keep from losing your capital outright.

All in all I'd say you better not antagonize the player with the imperial eye right now...

If the above isn't self-explanatory, I don't know what I am arguing for. Also, let's have a look at that, doesn't it seem as though you are falsely implying, in bad faith, that House Hazat is involved your scheme? No, surely, it must be my imagination, there is no way you'd misuse their name to try and extort Leminkainen out of House Hawkwood, right? 

[Karlito]

Rest assured, my Lord Hawkwood, under my direction the Imperial Fleet is not involved in any schemes, as you might call them, but naturally, I'm not at liberty to say whether The Hazat are or are not.

While I can't deny that House al-Malik has proper claims on Leminkainen, House Hawkwood is not only the occupying force, but also the currently recognized sovereign, by this very assembly. Lady Regent, it would appear that Lord Alvarex does not accept your price, and I can't say I blame him. Perhaps the fact that certain Houses have already announced their intent to construct new transports within the decade has diminished the value of Second Republic ships, but I hardly think that two transports are worth an entire planet.

So then, Lord Alvarex, forgive my bluntness but I too wish to see this incident resolved peacefully, what price would you ask for Leminkainen?

[Azthor]

House Hawkwood holds that Leminkainen is a producer of gems, trace and energy alike, making it in a staple planet for Hawkwood's future singularity industry.  Notwithstanding, Leminkainen shares the same amount of jump points to Istakhr as to Delphi, giving both houses equal claims; however, House Al-Malik signed a treaty with House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan where they explicitly recognized Leminkainen as Hawkwood property in exchange for recognition of Aylon & Malignatius as Al-Malik property by House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan.

It is therefore explicit that Al-Malik is contradicting its early agreement; not only was House Hawkwood the least benefited party in that agreement, contrary to what House Al-Malik claims, but, Leminkainen is also a rightful possession of Hawkwood, as noted below:

Aylon & Malignatius -> al-Malik
Criticorum -> Li-Halan
Lemimkainen -> Hawkwood

Can we all agree on and enforce the above? Also, while each of you determine your own policy, what I said earlier stands; Lemimkainen, at least, will be remain open to orbital traffic from al-Malik and Li-Halan.

We are all In agreement.

If House Al-Malik wishes to acquire Leminkainen, House Hawkwood considers it only fair that they trade, in return, another planet capable of supplying the resource income losses incurred by House Hawkwood in the process.

If the above is to be disregarded, shall the Empire's illustrious Houses assume that House Al-Malik does not honor its agreements?

[mainiac]

My noble house does not contest that sovereignty of Leminkainen was legally granted to the House Hawkwood.  We agreed to it previously when it was the price for peace.  But Hawkwood has no claim to this peace, he sacrificed nothing of his own and paid us no restitution.

At no point have we threatened or attempted to circumnavigate imperial law.  We have not sought to gain control of any Hawkwood world through invasion.  It is true that we have threatened but our threat was not to invade.  We have not mobalized so much as a single militiaman to fight Hawkwood.  We merely planned michief against Hawkwood in retaliation for the mischief they inflicted on us.  We suffered great lose of time and material when Hawkwood forced us to evacuate Leminkainen.  It is completely within our rights to inflict the same mischief upon them.  We did not threaten to fire a single shot against Hawkwood, merely to harass his production as he disrupted ours.

Hawkwood played the game of vendetta and played it foolishly.  Having spited a house that did no harm they first created an enemy.  Once that was done they lowered their guard to the very enemy they had just spited.  Well it is time for Hawkwood to reap what it has sown in their foolishness.  We will satisfy our honor one way or another.  Either Hawkwood will right the original wrong or we will inflict a comparable wrong upon them.

Hawkwood has shown they have no respect for trust.  In the absence of trust we have only vendetta.  My house is ready to satisfy that vendetta.  Once we have satisfied our vendetta the matter is settled and no houses sovereignty will have been disrupted.  Hawkwood will have no claim upon us.  Insult will have been repaid in kind and no war will be necessary.

So now Hawkwood has a choice.  Either agree under duress to that which we offered you the chance to agree to with an air of magnanimity or accept retribution for the wrong you did our house.

House Hawkwood holds that Leminkainen is a producer of gems, trace and energy alike, making it in a staple planet for Hawkwood's future singularity industry.  Notwithstanding, Leminkainen shares the same amount of jump points to Istakhr as to Delphi, giving both houses equal claims; however, House Al-Malik signed a treaty with House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan where they explicitly recognized Leminkainen as Hawkwood property in exchange for recognition of Aylon & Malignatius as Al-Malik property by House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan.

It is therefore explicit that Al-Malik is contradicting its early agreement; not only was House Hawkwood the least benefited party in that agreement, contrary to what House Al-Malik claims, but, Leminkainen is also a rightful possession of Hawkwood, as noted below:

If House Al-Malik wishes to acquire Leminkainen, House Hawkwood considers it only fair that they trade, in return, another planet capable of supplying the resource income losses incurred by House Hawkwood in the process.

You invoke a principle that you yourself do not honor.  You made no concession when you acquired Leminkainen yet you demand one now.

I offer you the choice of giving up Leminkainen in return for me forgiving your past wrong and paying you compensation.  If you do not wish to give up the planet that is fine.  I will seek my revenge in a different fashion.  And I will do so without bloodshed.

[Azthor]

My noble house does not contest that sovereignty of Leminkainen was legally granted to the House Hawkwood.  We agreed to it previously when it was the price for peace.  But Hawkwood has no claim to this peace, he sacrificed nothing of his own and paid us no restitution.

At no point have we threatened or attempted to circumnavigate imperial law.  We have not sought to gain control of any Hawkwood world through invasion.  It is true that we have threatened but our threat was not to invade.  We have not mobalized so much as a single militiaman to fight Hawkwood.  We merely planned michief against Hawkwood in retaliation for the mischief they inflicted on us.  We suffered great lose of time and material when Hawkwood forced us to evacuate Leminkainen.  It is completely within our rights to inflict the same mischief upon them.  We did not threaten to fire a single shot against Hawkwood, merely to harass his production as he disrupted ours.

Hawkwood played the game of vendetta and played it foolishly.  Having spited a house that did no harm they first created an enemy.  Once that was done they lowered their guard to the very enemy they had just spited.  Well it is time for Hawkwood to reap what it has sown in their foolishness.  We will satisfy our honor one way or another.  Either Hawkwood will right the original wrong or we will inflict a comparable wrong upon them.

Hawkwood has shown they have no respect for trust.  In the absence of trust we have only vendetta.  My house is ready to satisfy that vendetta.  Once we have satisfied our vendetta the matter is settled and no houses sovereignty will have been disrupted.  Hawkwood will have no claim upon us.  Insult will have been repaid in kind and no war will be necessary.

So now Hawkwood has a choice.  Either agree under duress to that which we offered you the chance to agree to with an air of magnanimity or accept retribution for the wrong you did our house.

House Hawkwood holds that Leminkainen is a producer of gems, trace and energy alike, making it in a staple planet for Hawkwood's future singularity industry.  Notwithstanding, Leminkainen shares the same amount of jump points to Istakhr as to Delphi, giving both houses equal claims; however, House Al-Malik signed a treaty with House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan where they explicitly recognized Leminkainen as Hawkwood property in exchange for recognition of Aylon & Malignatius as Al-Malik property by House Hawkwood and House Li-Halan.

It is therefore explicit that Al-Malik is contradicting its early agreement; not only was House Hawkwood the least benefited party in that agreement, contrary to what House Al-Malik claims, but, Leminkainen is also a rightful possession of Hawkwood, as noted below:

If House Al-Malik wishes to acquire Leminkainen, House Hawkwood considers it only fair that they trade, in return, another planet capable of supplying the resource income losses incurred by House Hawkwood in the process.

You invoke a principle that you yourself do not honor.  You made no concession when you acquired Leminkainen yet you demand one now.

I offer you the choice of giving up Leminkainen in return for me forgiving your past wrong and paying you compensation.  If you do not wish to give up the planet that is fine.  I will seek my revenge in a different fashion.  And I will do so without bloodshed.

House Al-Malik not once demonstrated its disatisfaction with the arrangement during our dealings. It is, therefore, clear Al-Malik's current claims are guided by unlawful ambition alone. House Hawkwood dares House Al-Malik raise evidences of its concern, at the time, pertaining Leminkainen falling on Hawkwood hands. At the very least, House Al-Malik dealed in bad faith, guided by their ravenous greed alone, intending to have their claims secured while hiding their intentions.

It should also go without saying that to threaten to seize Hawkwood's Capital Palace, no less, is much graver a political offense than merely disrupting our production facilities. House Hawkwood submits this ordeal to its fellow Houses' judgement, trusting their sense of justice.

((My actual OOC impression is: I cannot believe we are having this discussion. Al-Malik is free to want Leminkainen, but to argue from a contractual point of view that they have any right to it or that Hawkwood violated the contract in intention or principle is ridiculous; they cannot even claim duress since no threats were involved and they not once voiced their opinion in opposition to Hawkwood keeping Leminkainen. The only claim they have to Leminkainen is "I am greedy and want to conquer your planet"))

[mainiac]

House al Malik could come to an agreement on this matter but would ask that we be compensate for you taking so long to stake a claim.  We have already deployed troops and our fleet to secure the planet so you are putting us to significant expense.

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim because I didn't feel like starting a war that would have been two against one.  And so I bode my time and planned my revenge.  Hey, guess what time it is.  It's revenge time, noble sir.

So I put a question to you.  Should I take my revenge or will you make restitution that we might consider the matter settled?

[Azthor]

House al Malik could come to an agreement on this matter but would ask that we be compensate for you taking so long to stake a claim.  We have already deployed troops and our fleet to secure the planet so you are putting us to significant expense.

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim because I didn't feel like starting a war that would have been two against one.  And so I bode my time and planned my revenge.  Hey, guess what time it is.  It's revenge time, noble sir.

So I put a question to you.  Should I take my revenge or will you make restitution that we might consider the matter settled?

Because I am sure Li-Halan and Hawkwood as much as insinuated military action were you not to lift the claim, right? You have no basis for this argument other than an entirely personal grudge; House Hawkwood will discuss this matter no further until the other Houses have voiced their opinion. Should the other noble Houses rule unanimously that, against Hawkwood's best judgement, planetary restitution in the form of Leminkainen is due, Hawkwood will abide, but until or unless that is the case, House Hawkwood considers Al-Malik's claims at resitution nothing but revenge for a wrong which exists only on in fiction.

[a1s]

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim

Is it just me, or is this an open and shut case?
I think the power is getting to our newly minted regent's head. She is advised to remember that we, the Great Houses, have given her the regency and we will take it back if she continues to behave like princess on her first visit to the pony farm.

oops: messed up the gender, sorry about that.

[Azthor]

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim

Is it just me, or is this an open and shut case?
I think the power is getting to our newly minted regent's head. He is advised to remember that we, the Great Houses, have given him his regency and we will take it back if he continues to behave like prince on his first visit to the candy factory.

And, apparently, getting the Regency is synonymous with "revenge time" for her. No less, no more. Such is the great sense of justice and duty of our Lady Regent.

[mainiac]

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim because I didn't feel like starting a war that would have been two against one.

Is it just me, or is this an open and shut case?

Is it just me or is stopping a quote of someone mid sentence incredibly bad form?

I take it that you plan on supporting House Hawkwood in denying me the right to amend previous wrongs?  What a surprise, you stood with them before and you stand with them again.

As with Hawkwood, we can assure the imperium that al-Malik troops will not occupy Li Halan planets and will not fire upon Li Halan troops unless first fired upon.  But if you seek to prevent our vendetta from being satisfied we may be forced to treat you with the same hostility.

((Fun fact everyone, Li Halan left an unguarded freighter and bulk hauler two spots away from the imperial eye fortress.))

[a1s]

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim because I didn't feel like starting a war that would have been two against one.

Is it just me, or is this an open and shut case?

Is it just me or is stopping a quote of someone mid sentence incredibly bad form?

I honestly don't care about your fears and insecurities. The fact is that you gave up a contested claim and received another in it's place. "Why" is a question for the historians.

What a surprise, you stood with them before and you stand with them again.

It is not a surprise at all. I don't like people breaking a contract I was part of. If we let you get away with this, the next thing will be people knocking on Criticorum, asking me to compensate them for their transport expenses or remove my planet from their path. Or me from the planet. Now if you want to buy Leminkainen from the Hawkwoods, I'm sure that would be different. Just don't act like you own the universe and we'll all stay friends.

[Azthor]

I staked a claim.  I later backed down from this claim because I didn't feel like starting a war that would have been two against one.

Is it just me, or is this an open and shut case?

Is it just me or is stopping a quote of someone mid sentence incredibly bad form?

I take it that you plan on supporting House Hawkwood in denying me the right to amend previous wrongs?  What a surprise, you stood with them before and you stand with them again.

As with Hawkwood, we can assure the imperium that al-Malik troops will not occupy Li Halan planets and will not fire upon Li Halan troops unless first fired upon.  But if you seek to prevent our vendetta from being satisfied we may be forced to treat you with the same hostility.

((Fun fact everyone, Li Halan left an unguarded freighter and bulk hauler two spots away from the imperial eye fortress.))

Regardless of what earlier games may've taught you, burning bridges like there was no tomorrow and openly making enemies of your old allies as soon as you get the regency will not you win you the game. You are trying to extort, blackmail or otherwise bullshit your way out of an agreement you signed out of your own accord with no threats attached. If you want Leminkainen, at least admit it for what it is, you wanting it, no one here is buying the "I was forced into it by fear of being ganked" story.

[mainiac]

Azthor, I feel like you are seriously blurring the lines between in character and out of character communication here.  I want to say something to you, publicly, that is entirely out of character.  If anyone responds to this post please do so only in an out of character fashion because what I am offering here is entirely metagame analysis.

Out of character:

We are playing a 4X game here.  In this 4X game you expanded very aggressively.  You have far more buildings and planets then any other player but have fewer units defending them then any other player.  When you do this in a 4X game your opponents are going to respond in a logical way.  They are not going to sit around and wait for your economy to become overwhelming so you can defeat them at your leisure.  They are going to threaten you immediately so that you don't grow.  That's the difference between playing humans and playing the AI.  Humans see what you are doing and react to it.

Expanding aggressively is a completely acceptable move.  In no way do I begrudge you your choice or consider it illegitimate.  But you need to understand that it's not unsportsmanlike for me to respond in the logical fashion and attack your undefended belly.  We didn't agree to no rush-30 turns and we had no rules against attacking with ministry units at the first possible opportunity.  In character I encourage you to object to your hearts content, it makes for fun roleplaying.  But please keep those objections within the game and don't start making things out of character.  If you consider it an illegitimate tactic for me to attack you because you left your homeworld virtually defenseless then you should have stated so when we were agreeing on the rules.  There's nothing wrong with playing "no rush 50" but the players must agree to it at the start of the game.

I feel like this game is about negotiating, and wanted to offer you a chance to negotiate.  You do not seem to want to negotiate.  That's perfectly alright.  But I am now going to respond like a logical player of a 4X game and attack your base.

The preceding was all out of character.  Although there may have been parallels to IC motivations it was entirely metagame analysis.

On an unrelated note, I've decided not to grab Li Halan's undefended transports with the eye.  Li Halan may soon attack me but they have not done so yet.

On another unrelated note, Hawkwood and al-Malik are not "old allies".  There can be no friendship without communication and Hawkwood has not attempted to communicate with us at all.  I very much prefer the friendship of houses such as Decados and Hazat who have actually been willing to negotiate for mutual gain.

[Ghazkull]

House Decados, is a bit confused at the whole situation and has not been following the petty bickerings of you two all to closely...but i feel that House Al-Malik should be Granted Leminkainen, just to even out the odds in the Galaxy. Besides i think House Hawkwood truly doesn't need yet another Planet.