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[Teh Barple]

hiras i think you have a problem

[GreatJustice]

Clearing out the CCS hideouts doesn't need Navy SEALs, really. Just take a random group of 6 liberals, give them M16s, and they should be able to do the job without casualties (or else just send them to shoot up easy targets like the Radio Station before going after the CCS and their rifle skills will be high enough to guarantee it).

[Neonivek]

How about this as a weakener

The Backer list isn't hooked up to the internet. You have to actualy bug their computer system and then hack it back at the base.

Perfect!

[Jonathan S. Fox]

How about this as a weakener

The Backer list isn't hooked up to the internet. You have to actualy bug their computer system and then hack it back at the base.

Perfect!

You can't currently acquire the CCS Backer List by hacking from your safehouse -- it requires turning one of the most OP and viciously hostile CCS members into a sleeper, or an infiltration site action at arguably the most difficult location in the game.

[Neonivek]

How about this as a weakener

The Backer list isn't hooked up to the internet. You have to actualy bug their computer system and then hack it back at the base.

Perfect!

You can't currently acquire the CCS Backer List by hacking from your safehouse -- it requires turning one of the most OP and viciously hostile CCS members into a sleeper, or an infiltration site action at arguably the most difficult location in the game.

I was under the impression this was just "Hack CCS to death" so what exactly is the overpoweredness other then it being a VERY low heat even in failure?

[Jonathan S. Fox]

You have to hack the Intelligence supercomputer to get the item, then publish it. Once you do, it sets off a chain of news stories that culminate in the FBI raiding the CCS and the arrest of their leader. It's very low heat, aside from the treason charge, and provides a mechanism for pacifist runs to defeat the CCS. It requires a really great hacker/infiltrator though -- neither hacking the supercomputer itself nor getting to it without causing a lockdown are low-level tasks.

The Intelligence HQ is the most dangerous site in the game right now, by my understanding, so I'm not sure there's any good way to make it much harder, just more complicated.

[Neonivek]

The problem I guess is that ultimately there is so few ways to make a Pacifist run harder since this is a combat game and not one that handles non-combat with any sort of depth or elegance. As well if a pacifist action created a lot of heat it would make you lose (for example... if it was almost impossible to do this run without having it traced back to you) since that would destroy the pacifist run.

Games that have pacifist runs as tougher are usually because of the hoops you have to jump through to avoid combat, that have mechanics to avoid combat... or where combat will ultimately happen and you will be inexperienced.

I guess what I am saying is... There are no concequences because pacifist runs cannot handle concequences.

It is why runs that dabble in everything and even attempt combat are the hardest runs, because the game recognises that there are concequences to those actions and is more then willing to act upon them.

I can definately think of many great ways to make it harder... but none of them would preserve a pacifist run.

Edit addition: I said this REALLY sleep deprived. While I am still sleepy I have no idea if what I said was just nonsense or if it made sense. so I appologise in advance.

[KA101]

Thanks for the insight, Mr. Fox.

You have to hack the Intelligence supercomputer to get the item, then publish it. Once you do, it sets off a chain of news stories that culminate in the FBI raiding the CCS and the arrest of their leader.

I take it some of those other stories involve the backers being ...persuaded to cease & desist?  Having the LCS Founder arrested (not even sentenced or killed) isn't necessarily fatal to the LCS.  Certainly enough Hardened Veterans around to take over, if the CCS plays by the same succession rules.

It's very low heat, aside from the treason charge, and provides a mechanism for pacifist runs to defeat the CCS. It requires a really great hacker/infiltrator though -- neither hacking the supercomputer itself nor getting to it without causing a lockdown are low-level tasks.

True that, and one Treason charge of itself isn't that damaging.  Having a safehouse at 60-90% secrecy and it's never gained Heat*.  Having hackers active is more dangerous.  Once the Treasons start piling up (say, if you had 10 people at the printing press location when you published those Secret Documents, so 10*1 Treasons) then that becomes a problem.  But I take it publishing the list isn't considered treasonous?

The Intelligence HQ is the most dangerous site in the game right now, by my understanding, so I'm not sure there's any good way to make it much harder, just more complicated.

Agreed.

*Despite beating off the Firemen about 8 or 9 times to date, about 11 kills each time.  You'd think they'd call in heavier armor, at least--their coats can't stop a 9mm--or just take the original approach: kerosene hose & match.

[EuchreJack]

Thanks for the insight, Mr. Fox.

You have to hack the Intelligence supercomputer to get the item, then publish it. Once you do, it sets off a chain of news stories that culminate in the FBI raiding the CCS and the arrest of their leader.

I take it some of those other stories involve the backers being ...persuaded to cease & desist?  Having the LCS Founder arrested (not even sentenced or killed) isn't necessarily fatal to the LCS.  Certainly enough Hardened Veterans around to take over, if the CCS plays by the same succession rules.

In my mind, the CCS never plays by the same rules as the LCS.  The fact that the CCS is backed by the CIA and Corporate Interests is a large argument for my point of view.  In my mind, the CCS is about as similar to the LCS as Electronic Arts is to Bay12Games.

The Intelligence HQ is the most dangerous site in the game right now, by my understanding, so I'm not sure there's any good way to make it much harder, just more complicated.

Agreed.

I actually disagree with the Intelligence HQ as host site being the hardest option for two reasons.  First, Agents don't wear body armor of any sort, so if you can get a bullet past their admittedly high dodge rating, they go down like flies, unlike Hardened Veterans or SEALs (who typically lay there for a round or two drawing fire away from their able fellows, leading to more casualties).  Second, the player can head to the Intelligence HQ on day one (if they start with a car), whereas simply finding CCS hideouts is a whole adventure in itself.  Hence, my arguments for "part two" of the CCS List being in the first CCS hideout.

[Darvi]

The problem with shooting down agents is that it immediately causes the computer to shut down, hence nullifying any effort that you made getting inside.

[Neonivek]

The problem with shooting down agents is that it immediately causes the computer to shut down, hence nullifying any effort that you made getting inside.

The bigger problem is that would kill the pacifist run.

[KA101]

The Intelligence HQ is the most dangerous site in the game right now, by my understanding, so I'm not sure there's any good way to make it much harder, just more complicated.

Agreed.

I actually disagree with the Intelligence HQ as host site being the hardest option for two reasons.  First, Agents don't wear body armor of any sort, so if you can get a bullet past their admittedly high dodge rating, they go down like flies, unlike Hardened Veterans or SEALs (who typically lay there for a round or two drawing fire away from their able fellows, leading to more casualties).  Second, the player can head to the Intelligence HQ on day one (if they start with a car), whereas simply finding CCS hideouts is a whole adventure in itself.  Hence, my arguments for "part two" of the CCS List being in the first CCS hideout.

Aside from the two points Darvi & Neonivek made (either of which suffice to break the argument, IMO), the most one would have going for an action on the Intelligence HQ on Day 1 would be an AK a Bug, 3 points of Rifle 7 points of Martial Arts, 3 points Security, 2 points Stealth, and 2 points Computers.  No armor & no disguise; probably not enough Stealth or Security to accomplish anything, and no chance at the Supercomputer (needs 8 Computers, minimum, IIRC).

I would be very interested to see someone do a Day 1 site action on the IntHQ, gain Juice (ideally, make it to Activist or level up a skill), and come back intact.  Hitting the Supercomputer within the first month might be theoretically possible but would be a grindfest.  One would be looking for 9-10 in Stealth/Disguise, Security, and Computers.  That last one would probably be the killer, since the most one can start with is 4, if I'm reading the questions wiki-page correctly.  (By comparison, the car is trivial.)

<puts on JFK mask>
"I believe that this Squad should commit itself to the goal, before January 2009 is out, of Liberally Hacking the CIA Supercomputer and returning all involved safely to their safehouse."
<removes mask>

[EuchreJack]

You'd probably split the security and computers between two people.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

The difficulty with splitting security and computers is that both people now need to infiltrate the building without detection. That means they both need to be trained in disguise or stealth enough to pass agents and guard dogs, and stealth is more effective with fewer people.

[GreatJustice]

Not too hard I'd think.

-Get high stealth/security leader, grind for security, stealth and disguise constantly (if done well, you can reach security 20 before the month is out and improve your stealth/disguise stats as well)
-Recruit a good programmer from the net cafe (8+ is ideal and not hard to achieve if you spread the net wide enough), have him grind via hacking or credit  card fraud
-Get a suit to fit in to the HQ, break in, and with some decent luck you should be able to succeed (getting out alive is another matter though)