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[Radiant_Phoenix]

First, balance between characters in a game is only a concern when either:

• Both characters are being played in the same game, and by different players.
• You choose to play one character or the other and the two are claimed to be equal.

Neither is the case in DF. DF is a single-player sandbox experience.

Second, healing miracles should be unbelievably better than mundane doctors, because otherwise, they wouldn't be miracles. If my moody dwarf pops out an artifact operating table that menaces with flowers of healing, and it's barely better than just using a normal table for the job, I will be extremely disappointed. The only way that would be acceptable would be if "dud artifacts" were a documented and expected part of the game, in which case I would consider having the dwarf responsible reassigned as cannon fodder.

Third, magic should generally not be as ludicrously incongruous with the rest of the world as everyone here seems to be acting like it should be. Rather, it should be more mythic, where the dwarf who can heal with but a touch is already a supreme doctor, and the dwarf who summons meteors is already a supreme siege engineer and operator, whether that's because they were blessed by the bear-goddess of healing, or because they trained hard and learned more than any other.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First, if one choice is inherently superior to another then there's not really any reason to have the inferior choice, and there's that much less of a game. If there's no reason not to, such choices should be balanced.

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

Third, why would being a doctor be needed to request a miracle or however it works, and why would siege operation would be needed to summon fireballs? And why would siege engineering matter at all? Seriously, if magic is just the highest level of normal skill, it's not so magical anymore.

[Radiant_Phoenix]

First, if one choice is inherently superior to another then there's not really any reason to have the inferior choice, and there's that much less of a game. If there's no reason not to, such choices should be balanced.

There is a reason to have such a choice: so people can make things more or less difficult for themselves. If you don't want nontrivial healing magic to be present in your game, turn it off in init/RAW; if you want nontrivial healing magic to be common in your game, turn it up in init/RAW

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

If the miracle is a healing artifact, the artifact should be reliable; what should be unreliable is getting the artifact.

Third, why would being a doctor be needed to request a miracle or however it works, and why would siege operation would be needed to summon fireballs? And why would siege engineering matter at all? Seriously, if magic is just the highest level of normal skill, it's not so magical anymore.

• This would be a level beyond what would be normally achievable. Far beyond.
• Note the use of the word "generally" --i.e., there would be exceptions. These would generally be considered 'weird' in-world.
• Siege Engineering because that is one of the skills that would be used for catapults.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First, if one choice is inherently superior to another then there's not really any reason to have the inferior choice, and there's that much less of a game. If there's no reason not to, such choices should be balanced.

There is a reason to have such a choice: so people can make things more or less difficult for themselves. If you don't want nontrivial healing magic to be present in your game, turn it off in init/RAW; if you want nontrivial healing magic to be common in your game, turn it up in init/RAW

A modding solution is no solution, especially when it doesn't solve the problem. Anyways, it's not like balanced healing magic is a horrible break from reality if done right. And Toady doesn't do things wrong.

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

If the miracle is a healing artifact, the artifact should be reliable; what should be unreliable is getting the artifact.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't like rare things that make the game immensely easier. Stuff should be good, cheap, or infinite--pick one, two tops.

Third, why would being a doctor be needed to request a miracle or however it works, and why would siege operation would be needed to summon fireballs? And why would siege engineering matter at all? Seriously, if magic is just the highest level of normal skill, it's not so magical anymore.

• This would be a level beyond what would be normally achievable. Far beyond.
• Note the use of the word "generally" --i.e., there would be exceptions. These would generally be considered 'weird' in-world.
• Siege Engineering because that is one of the skills that would be used for catapults.

1. Then why is the skill even needed?
2. Why are catapults related to fireballs?

[Damiac]

I second GWG's reply.  Please don't make DF easier... Make it deeper instead.

[10ebbor10]

Sigh:

A game where one choice is clearly superior above the other is not a game, but a puzzle.

I further need to support GWG here. Healing magic should not be a lucky once, Overpowered forever thing. I think it should either be semi-rare(as in a few times per fort experience, or even not at all, but not as in only getting it once in ten forts.) or risky. There's no fun in getting a healing thing that makes you nearly instant win purely by random chance. There's however fun in relying on the aid of a possibly grumpy and unreliable god/wizard, or employing slightly unethical magic to heal people. DF is a game where most fun is caused by human error, and that's what it should remain. It's no fun being ran into the ground just because the game decided to do that.

[Radiant_Phoenix]

There is a reason to have such a choice: so people can make things more or less difficult for themselves. If you don't want nontrivial healing magic to be present in your game, turn it off in init/RAW; if you want nontrivial healing magic to be common in your game, turn it up in init/RAW

A modding solution is no solution, especially when it doesn't solve the problem. Anyways, it's not like balanced healing magic is a horrible break from reality if done right. And Toady doesn't do things wrong.

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

If the miracle is a healing artifact, the artifact should be reliable; what should be unreliable is getting the artifact.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't like rare things that make the game immensely easier. Stuff should be good, cheap, or infinite--pick one, two tops.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.

1. Then why is the skill even needed?
2. Why are catapults related to fireballs?

I was thinking that rather than it always (or almost always) being, "you need the skill to {have / get} the magic," (although some secrets would require it) instead, often it's, "{having / the process of getting} the magic gives you the skill"... but basically, the reason doesn't really have much to do with balance; rather, it is something to make magic feel like it is a part of the world, rather than apart from it. What this has to do with the discussion is that it makes the 'magical healer' a part of the hospital system rather than something separate.

What catapults have to do with meteors is that stones thrown from catapults and meteors are both things that fall on your enemies' heads.

[10ebbor10]

There is a reason to have such a choice: so people can make things more or less difficult for themselves. If you don't want nontrivial healing magic to be present in your game, turn it off in init/RAW; if you want nontrivial healing magic to be common in your game, turn it up in init/RAW

A modding solution is no solution, especially when it doesn't solve the problem. Anyways, it's not like balanced healing magic is a horrible break from reality if done right. And Toady doesn't do things wrong.

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.Even then, the way I understand your idea it would horribly break the balance of the game. An OP option is still broken even if you add a way to turn it off.

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

If the miracle is a healing artifact, the artifact should be reliable; what should be unreliable is getting the artifact.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't like rare things that make the game immensely easier. Stuff should be good, cheap, or infinite--pick one, two tops.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.Both would be cheap too. Unless you make artefacts incredibly rare this seems like something that would tremendously reduce the challenge of DF. Getting an artefact is nonproblematic, and these things would almost always be worth more than they cost. In effect, they'd be like getting more free stuff onto an already overpowered mechanic.

While I do agree that artefacts might sometimes be magical, I propose that they shouldn't be entirely riskless.

1. Then why is the skill even needed?
2. Why are catapults related to fireballs?

I was thinking that rather than it always (or almost always) being, "you need the skill to {have / get} the magic," (although some secrets would require it) instead, often it's, "{having / the process of getting} the magic gives you the skill"... but basically, the reason doesn't really have much to do with balance; rather, it is something to make magic feel like it is a part of the world, rather than apart from it. What this has to do with the discussion is that it makes the 'magical healer' a part of the hospital system rather than something separate.

What catapults have to do with meteors is that stones thrown from catapults and meteors are both things that fall on your enemies' heads.
Practically nothing in particular then. For me, catapult throwers suddenly learning fireball (or vice versa) would completely break immersion. There's no reason to do it. Besides, It's a rather common theme in fantasy for dwarves not to posses magic, and as such, I would like it more if magic was something for the happy few, a dangerous and rare force not to be meddled with, and that dwarves might look upon it which some sort of disdain. Kinda creating a tension between the Scientific, ration and effeciency driven dwarves and the wizards which are meddling with the occult and nearly ununderstandable.

[GreatWyrmGold]

There is a reason to have such a choice: so people can make things more or less difficult for themselves. If you don't want nontrivial healing magic to be present in your game, turn it off in init/RAW; if you want nontrivial healing magic to be common in your game, turn it up in init/RAW

A modding solution is no solution, especially when it doesn't solve the problem. Anyways, it's not like balanced healing magic is a horrible break from reality if done right. And Toady doesn't do things wrong.

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Point.

Your reply.

See the problem?

Second, a miracle should be miraculous but it shouldn't be reliable or common. That's "balance" in the sense we're using it.

If the miracle is a healing artifact, the artifact should be reliable; what should be unreliable is getting the artifact.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't like rare things that make the game immensely easier. Stuff should be good, cheap, or infinite--pick one, two tops.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.

I'm leery of the idea of getting even one kind of artifact with that level of power. And fortresses often have several strange moods over their lifespan...

1. Then why is the skill even needed?
2. Why are catapults related to fireballs?

I was thinking that rather than it always (or almost always) being, "you need the skill to {have / get} the magic," (although some secrets would require it) instead, often it's, "{having / the process of getting} the magic gives you the skill"... but basically, the reason doesn't really have much to do with balance; rather, it is something to make magic feel like it is a part of the world, rather than apart from it. What this has to do with the discussion is that it makes the 'magical healer' a part of the hospital system rather than something separate.

What catapults have to do with meteors is that stones thrown from catapults and meteors are both things that fall on your enemies' heads.

So are raindrops. Should siege operation also be required for weather control? Bolts also fall on your enemies heads, should marksdwarfship be required to cast fireballs and rain spells? I could go on all day.

[Radiant_Phoenix]

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Point.

Your reply.

See the problem?

No. Please elaborate.

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Even then, the way I understand your idea it would horribly break the balance of the game. An OP option is still broken even if you add a way to turn it off.

See below.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.

Both would be cheap too. Unless you make artefacts incredibly rare this seems like something that would tremendously reduce the challenge of DF. Getting an artefact is nonproblematic, and these things would almost always be worth more than they cost. In effect, they'd be like getting more free stuff onto an already overpowered mechanic.

While I do agree that artefacts might sometimes be magical, I propose that they shouldn't be entirely riskless.

That's a good point. How about this:

The cost is that your fort value goes through the roof and powerful beings will become interested in your fort. When you get an amazing artifact, you'll probably need its benefits soon.

(Unless you mod/init/worldgen the consequences away)

I was thinking that rather than it always (or almost always) being, "you need the skill to {have / get} the magic," (although some secrets would require it) instead, often it's, "{having / the process of getting} the magic gives you the skill"... but basically, the reason doesn't really have much to do with balance; rather, it is something to make magic feel like it is a part of the world, rather than apart from it. What this has to do with the discussion is that it makes the 'magical healer' a part of the hospital system rather than something separate.

What catapults have to do with meteors is that stones thrown from catapults and meteors are both things that fall on your enemies' heads.

Practically nothing in particular then. For me, catapult throwers suddenly learning fireball (or vice versa) would completely break immersion. There's no reason to do it. Besides, It's a rather common theme in fantasy for dwarves not to posses magic, and as such, I would like it more if magic was something for the happy few, a dangerous and rare force not to be meddled with, and that dwarves might look upon it which some sort of disdain. Kinda creating a tension between the Scientific, ration and effeciency driven dwarves and the wizards which are meddling with the occult and nearly ununderstandable.

I guess one of our differences on this matter is that, as mentioned, I want magic to be a part of the world rather than apart from it. I feel that magic shouldn't simply be, "stuff happens for no reason," but rather things that happen for a reason that isn't true in our world. I think that, "magic vs science," as presented in many stories, where you have scientists and engineers refusing to have anything to do with, "magic," because it doesn't fit with the physics they believe in is pointless fappery, mostly by people who don't know what they're talking about, but also sometimes by people who should know better, and that it's more interesting to see what results when science and engineering are applied to phenomena that normal people in our world would consider, "magic," or, "impossible".

In other words, I think that in a "well designed" fantasy world, the concept of an "anti-magic field" that shut down all "magic" would be as ludicrous as an "anti-circle field" that negated the properties of circles, and for approximately the same reasons.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Point.

Your reply.

See the problem?

No. Please elaborate.

My points were that A. you shouldn't need to change the game to make it work well, and B. there is NO REASON not to give healing magic some form of balance to bring its average utility in line with mundane healing.

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Even then, the way I understand your idea it would horribly break the balance of the game. An OP option is still broken even if you add a way to turn it off.

See below.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.

Both would be cheap too. Unless you make artefacts incredibly rare this seems like something that would tremendously reduce the challenge of DF. Getting an artefact is nonproblematic, and these things would almost always be worth more than they cost. In effect, they'd be like getting more free stuff onto an already overpowered mechanic.

While I do agree that artefacts might sometimes be magical, I propose that they shouldn't be entirely riskless.

That's a good point. How about this:

The cost is that your fort value goes through the roof and powerful beings will become interested in your fort. When you get an amazing artifact, you'll probably need its benefits soon.

(Unless you mod/init/worldgen the consequences away)

Oy, vey.
No, this doesn't help. Giving broken things huge costs makes them either useless or still broken. It's nigh impossible for ANYONE, even someone skilled as Toady, to balance it. Just try something different.

I was thinking that rather than it always (or almost always) being, "you need the skill to {have / get} the magic," (although some secrets would require it) instead, often it's, "{having / the process of getting} the magic gives you the skill"... but basically, the reason doesn't really have much to do with balance; rather, it is something to make magic feel like it is a part of the world, rather than apart from it. What this has to do with the discussion is that it makes the 'magical healer' a part of the hospital system rather than something separate.

What catapults have to do with meteors is that stones thrown from catapults and meteors are both things that fall on your enemies' heads.

Practically nothing in particular then. For me, catapult throwers suddenly learning fireball (or vice versa) would completely break immersion. There's no reason to do it. Besides, It's a rather common theme in fantasy for dwarves not to posses magic, and as such, I would like it more if magic was something for the happy few, a dangerous and rare force not to be meddled with, and that dwarves might look upon it which some sort of disdain. Kinda creating a tension between the Scientific, ration and effeciency driven dwarves and the wizards which are meddling with the occult and nearly ununderstandable.

I guess one of our differences on this matter is that, as mentioned, I want magic to be a part of the world rather than apart from it. I feel that magic shouldn't simply be, "stuff happens for no reason," but rather things that happen for a reason that isn't true in our world. I think that, "magic vs science," as presented in many stories, where you have scientists and engineers refusing to have anything to do with, "magic," because it doesn't fit with the physics they believe in is pointless fappery, mostly by people who don't know what they're talking about, but also sometimes by people who should know better, and that it's more interesting to see what results when science and engineering are applied to phenomena that normal people in our world would consider, "magic," or, "impossible".

In other words, I think that in a "well designed" fantasy world, the concept of an "anti-magic field" that shut down all "magic" would be as ludicrous as an "anti-circle field" that negated the properties of circles, and for approximately the same reasons.

Well, several issues here.
1. Magic isn't like circles, it's more like gravity.
2. If spells can fiddle with gravity *cough*flight magic*/cough* and other natural laws, it should also be able to fiddle with magic.
3. This doesn't seem to pertain to the question, which was what the heck magical skills have to do with almost unrelated mundane skills and why dwarves have magic.

[Damiac]

I do think that one balancing consequence of magic (perhaps among other factors) could be that it adds some sort of value, or even a new category, "magic value" or some such, which attracts powerful beings to your fort.  Phoenix sort of hinted to that in his last reply, although he was talking about valuable artifacts, the magic itself could be an attractant. 

So using magic would be dangerous, and you'd certainly not use it if you could obtain the results through mundane means.  This is sort of what I was suggesting much earlier in this thread, where perhaps you'd have to sacrifice objects of value, and then that dwarfbuck value is converted to magic value.  Magic value being what attracts these powerful, dangerous beings.  So first you have to sacrifice 100k dwarfbucks worth of valuable crafts, and then you have to worry about what's going to come and get you.

I feel that fits quite well with the fantasy lore of magic being a powerful force, with powerful consequences.

I'd also have whatever research and teaching you do to actually get the magic also attract powerful enemies.  Meaning you'd have to be well established and defended before you even thought about getting magic for your fort.  Once the army arc is implemented you could also have other civs trying to wipe you out due to their fear of your magic, or perhaps wanting to get it for themselves.  Of course it could go the other way too, with your army wiping out a necro tower to steal their secrets.

[Radiant_Phoenix]

My points were that A. you shouldn't need to change the game to make it work well, and B. there is NO REASON not to give healing magic some form of balance to bring its average utility in line with mundane healing.

Actually, there is: because "rare magical healing powers" that aren't much better than normal healing aren't very interesting.

I guess one of our differences on this matter is that, as mentioned, I want magic to be a part of the world rather than apart from it. I feel that magic shouldn't simply be, "stuff happens for no reason," but rather things that happen for a reason that isn't true in our world. I think that, "magic vs science," as presented in many stories, where you have scientists and engineers refusing to have anything to do with, "magic," because it doesn't fit with the physics they believe in is pointless fappery, mostly by people who don't know what they're talking about, but also sometimes by people who should know better, and that it's more interesting to see what results when science and engineering are applied to phenomena that normal people in our world would consider, "magic," or, "impossible".

In other words, I think that in a "well designed" fantasy world, the concept of an "anti-magic field" that shut down all "magic" would be as ludicrous as an "anti-circle field" that negated the properties of circles, and for approximately the same reasons.

Well, several issues here.
1. Magic isn't like circles, it's more like gravity.
2. If spells can fiddle with gravity *cough*flight magic*/cough* and other natural laws, it should also be able to fiddle with magic.
3. This doesn't seem to pertain to the question, which was what the heck magical skills have to do with almost unrelated mundane skills and why dwarves have magic.

1: Some magic might be. A Roc's ability to fly despite being four times the size of an elephant should not be. Magic {replacing / being part of} electromagnetism (but being similar enough to our electromagnetism in enough ways that the world doesn't look like complete nonsense to the casual observer) is the way I view it. (remember that electromagnetism is basically the force that defines all macro-scale physics that isn't done by gravity, and that an 'anti-electromagnetism field' would thus be a pretty nuts weapon)

2: In the case of, "this magic power fiddles with magic powers A, B, and C," then sure; in the sense of, "this magic power negates everything that isn't mundane earth-normal physics," absolutely not.

3a: The idea is that understanding a magical power gives you and understanding of things related to how the magic power works. If you disagree with the relatedness, then we've probably come up with different explanations for how the power in question works. (I'll admit that having siege engineering come from the ability to aim and summon meteors doesn't make much sense)

3b: Why not? Admittedly, there are good reasons to have them favor certain themes in their magic, such as crafting, earth, and booze, but that's not the same as saying, "these creatures have no magical powers or properties. Mundane earth stuff only. Final Destination."

[10ebbor10]

I do think that one balancing consequence of magic (perhaps among other factors) could be that it adds some sort of value, or even a new category, "magic value" or some such, which attracts powerful beings to your fort.  Phoenix sort of hinted to that in his last reply, although he was talking about valuable artifacts, the magic itself could be an attractant. 

So using magic would be dangerous, and you'd certainly not use it if you could obtain the results through mundane means.  This is sort of what I was suggesting much earlier in this thread, where perhaps you'd have to sacrifice objects of value, and then that dwarfbuck value is converted to magic value.  Magic value being what attracts these powerful, dangerous beings.  So first you have to sacrifice 100k dwarfbucks worth of valuable crafts, and then you have to worry about what's going to come and get you.

I feel that fits quite well with the fantasy lore of magic being a powerful force, with powerful consequences.

I'd also have whatever research and teaching you do to actually get the magic also attract powerful enemies.  Meaning you'd have to be well established and defended before you even thought about getting magic for your fort.  Once the army arc is implemented you could also have other civs trying to wipe you out due to their fear of your magic, or perhaps wanting to get it for themselves.  Of course it could go the other way too, with your army wiping out a necro tower to steal their secrets.

I quite liked the idea of magic being a sort of hidden resource, and with different types of magic being based on the spheres in the world. Players could then mess with this magical field stuff, by planting magical plants, installing altars to gods (which function as a source of magic when things are offered to them) and more. Magic use would then locally drain these fields. Having too much power would let strange things happen or attract magic eating beasts, having too few would cause magical spells and items to start to fail. A magical artefact would also be a source of magical power, or a user. I suppose the idea could work in this context, but not completely.

Ideally a thing should be
-Not dangerous when you don't meddle much with it (ignorable. Counts for all but a few key game mechanics, and hopefully that will be changed a bit in the future)
-Dangerous when you meddle with it and don't pay attention
-Not that dangerous when you meddle with it and pay attention

My points were that A. you shouldn't need to change the game to make it work well, and B. there is NO REASON not to give healing magic some form of balance to bring its average utility in line with mundane healing.

Actually, there is: because "rare magical healing powers" that aren't much better than normal healing aren't very interesting. Nor are magical powers that are completely safe, work always and not that costly

I guess one of our differences on this matter is that, as mentioned, I want magic to be a part of the world rather than apart from it. I feel that magic shouldn't simply be, "stuff happens for no reason," but rather things that happen for a reason that isn't true in our world. I think that, "magic vs science," as presented in many stories, where you have scientists and engineers refusing to have anything to do with, "magic," because it doesn't fit with the physics they believe in is pointless fappery, mostly by people who don't know what they're talking about, but also sometimes by people who should know better, and that it's more interesting to see what results when science and engineering are applied to phenomena that normal people in our world would consider, "magic," or, "impossible".

In other words, I think that in a "well designed" fantasy world, the concept of an "anti-magic field" that shut down all "magic" would be as ludicrous as an "anti-circle field" that negated the properties of circles, and for approximately the same reasons.Wrapping of space is a thing, you know. Also, magic would be more akin to gravity(as GWG says), since circles are an abstract thing devised by the human mind, and don't exist in the real world. Since anti-gravity fields are more or less a thing(modifying gravity is possible, at least) anti magic fields should be too. Not saying it should be easy or usefull.

Well, several issues here.
1. Magic isn't like circles, it's more like gravity.
2. If spells can fiddle with gravity *cough*flight magic*/cough* and other natural laws, it should also be able to fiddle with magic.
3. This doesn't seem to pertain to the question, which was what the heck magical skills have to do with almost unrelated mundane skills and why dwarves have magic.

1: Some magic might be. A Roc's ability to fly despite being four times the size of an elephant should not be. Magic {replacing / being part of} electromagnetism (but being similar enough to our electromagnetism in enough ways that the world doesn't look like complete nonsense to the casual observer) is the way I view it. (remember that electromagnetism is basically the force that defines all macro-scale physics that isn't done by gravity, and that an 'anti-electromagnetism field' would thus be a pretty nuts weapon)Well, it's basically possible by using a counter force to counteract the first force. An antielectromagnetism field would simply cause all atoms inside to spontanously disintegrate. A Roc is a clearly magical creature, and probably uses magic to support itself.

2: In the case of, "this magic power fiddles with magic powers A, B, and C," then sure; in the sense of, "this magic power negates everything that isn't mundane earth-normal physics," absolutely not.Kinda not. It should be possible to heavily hinder magica influences, but not easy, and not without consequences. Way more things might be magically influenced than they seem. And you'd need a pretty strong counteracting energy to stop it, of course.

3a: The idea is that understanding a magical power gives you and understanding of things related to how the magic power works. If you disagree with the relatedness, then we've probably come up with different explanations for how the power in question works. (I'll admit that having siege engineering come from the ability to aim and summon meteors doesn't make much sense)

3b: Why not? Admittedly, there are good reasons to have them favor certain themes in their magic, such as crafting, earth, and booze, but that's not the same as saying, "these creatures have no magical powers or properties. Mundane earth stuff only. Final Destination."I'm not saying that they shouldn't have magic, and just seems like a strange thing for a dwarf to meddle with the occult. Though it's possible, I'd prefer it not to be a dwarven squad casting fireballs, but either a semi divine thing or a secondary industry. So rather than each industry having an accompagnying magical option, I'd rather have a whole magical system that the players can explore and exploit at their leisure (see, magical fields)

Worldgen parameters might be a better choice.

Point.

Your reply.

See the problem?

No. Please elaborate.

My points were that A. you shouldn't need to change the game to make it work well, and B. there is NO REASON not to give healing magic some form of balance to bring its average utility in line with mundane healing.

The healing artifact isn't 'cheap' because it comes at the cost of not getting some other powerful artifact from that mood instead, such as an anvil that makes all the weapons from its workshop require only a tenth as much material, or an unbreakable door with an unpickable lock.

Both would be cheap too. Unless you make artefacts incredibly rare this seems like something that would tremendously reduce the challenge of DF. Getting an artefact is nonproblematic, and these things would almost always be worth more than they cost. In effect, they'd be like getting more free stuff onto an already overpowered mechanic.

While I do agree that artefacts might sometimes be magical, I propose that they shouldn't be entirely riskless.

That's a good point. How about this:

The cost is that your fort value goes through the roof and powerful beings will become interested in your fort. When you get an amazing artifact, you'll probably need its benefits soon.

(Unless you mod/init/worldgen the consequences away)

Oy, vey.
No, this doesn't help. Giving broken things huge costs makes them either useless or still broken. It's nigh impossible for ANYONE, even someone skilled as Toady, to balance it. Just try something different.In addition, the fact that you can't really control artefacts would make it an incredibly annoying mechanic.
DF:Here, have a magic bed. Have fun battling the inevitable monster hordes
Player:But I was trying to construct a ((Insert non fighting goal here))
It also doesn't fit with the later idea of having fort goals, as each and every fort would end up under siege by magical creatures.

[Radiant_Phoenix]

Please stop putting your responses inside the quote blocks, it adds unnecessary difficulty to reading the post and makes formatting my response more difficult :_(

Actually, there is: because "rare magical healing powers" that aren't much better than normal healing aren't very interesting.

Nor are magical powers that are completely safe, work always and not that costly

I disagree; a perfectly safe (for the user) superpower can be very interesting, such as if you don't have a 'full set' of them, but have to solve a range of problems anyway.

A small improvement in capabilities does much less of that. (A +1 Longsword isn't much more interesting than a mundane longsword, but a Flying Carpet is much more interesting than a horse)

1: Some magic might be. A Roc's ability to fly despite being four times the size of an elephant should not be. Magic {replacing / being part of} electromagnetism (but being similar enough to our electromagnetism in enough ways that the world doesn't look like complete nonsense to the casual observer) is the way I view it. (remember that electromagnetism is basically the force that defines all macro-scale physics that isn't done by gravity, and that an 'anti-electromagnetism field' would thus be a pretty nuts weapon)

Well, it's basically possible by using a counter force to counteract the first force. An antielectromagnetism field would simply cause all atoms inside to spontanously disintegrate. A Roc is a clearly magical creature, and probably uses magic to support itself.

Having anti-SPHERE fields (i.e., fields that weaken or negate the influence of certain [SPHERE]s) might make about as much sense as an anti-gravity field. I think I'd be okay with that.

Scenario (hypothetical, details subject to change to be better and make more sense):
A Roc is a megabeast associated with the spheres of SKY, WIND, and HUNTING. (presumably, it also has more spheres, like ANIMAL (because BIRD doesn't exist), but we're going to ignore that for a bit.

Let's say the Roc stays in the air because of the SKY sphere, moves laterally through the air at high speeds because of the WIND and HUNTING spheres, and can track its prey through the HUNTING sphere.

If you weaken the SKY sphere in an area (presumably by building a roof), it won't be able to fly as high, and if you weaken the WIND sphere (presumably by building lots of doors that close to subdivide the area into rooms), it will be slowed down, and ... I'm not really sure how you would weaken the HUNTING sphere.

2: In the case of, "this magic power fiddles with magic powers A, B, and C," then sure; in the sense of, "this magic power negates everything that isn't mundane earth-normal physics," absolutely not.

Kinda not. It should be possible to heavily hinder magica influences, but not easy, and not without consequences. Way more things might be magically influenced than they seem. And you'd need a pretty strong counteracting energy to stop it, of course.

The first thing I would expect it to require is knowing all the things you want to stop -- and you would need to individually negate each magical process and property, not just "turn the magic off". You'd also need to deal with the fact that hurting a sphere generally helps its opposite, and that CRAFTS is a sphere, and if you negate it, your device probably destroys itself)

3a: The idea is that understanding a magical power gives you and understanding of things related to how the magic power works. If you disagree with the relatedness, then we've probably come up with different explanations for how the power in question works. (I'll admit that having siege engineering come from the ability to aim and summon meteors doesn't make much sense)

3b: Why not? Admittedly, there are good reasons to have them favor certain themes in their magic, such as crafting, earth, and booze, but that's not the same as saying, "these creatures have no magical powers or properties. Mundane earth stuff only. Final Destination."

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have magic, and just seems like a strange thing for a dwarf to meddle with the occult. Though it's possible, I'd prefer it not to be a dwarven squad casting fireballs, but either a semi divine thing or a secondary industry. So rather than each industry having an accompagnying magical option, I'd rather have a whole magical system that the players can explore and exploit at their leisure (see, magical fields)

Throwing fireballs (that aren't actually some form of grenade) would probably be pretty exotic for dwarves, yeah, but I would expect them to have, like, some sort of stoneworking magic (that lets them carve masterwork stone thrones with their beards or whatever), and such.

The reason I want magically doing X to be associated with whatever skills are used to do X nonmagically, is because if magically doing X uses a different skill, one of the following will be the case:

• Magic is better than nonmagic, and dwarves with the nonmagic skills are now basically peasants, which is bad.
• Magic is equal to nonmagic, and does the same thing, so why do you have both?
• Magic is worse than nonmagic, and dwarves with the nonmagic skills are now basically peasants, which is bad.
• Magic actually doesn't do X, which generally won't happen, and for a significant number of things, we probably want to have both magical methods of doing the thing and mundane ways.

...

Actually, now that I think about it, I think we're both mixing up two ends of a spectrum of magic, that goes from, "low-key stuff that people see as 'just part of the world'" to, "artifacts and ancient/forbidden/mighty secrets that will shake the world to its foundations (only exaggerating a little bit)."

The first should be balanced with the hospital system by being part of the hospital system (whether it's RAW-defined, hard-coded, or procedurally generated), while the second should (generally be procedurally generated, but be RAW-definable, and...) be designed with the expectation that it is better than the hospital system, but is one of: naturally so risky that nobody wants to try it, impossible for most people, or really rare and if you have it people will beat a path to your door to try to get it(s benefits), whether by coin, sword, or stealth. I don't know if you should know better, but I certainly should have, because I've posted about this before.

I think that artifacts should generally fall into the second category.

Oy, vey.
No, this doesn't help. Giving broken things huge costs makes them either useless or still broken. It's nigh impossible for ANYONE, even someone skilled as Toady, to balance it. Just try something different.In addition, the fact that you can't really control artefacts would make it an incredibly annoying mechanic.
DF:Here, have a magic bed. Have fun battling the inevitable monster hordes
Player:But I was trying to construct a ((Insert non fighting goal here))
It also doesn't fit with the later idea of having fort goals, as each and every fort would end up under siege by magical creatures.

That's a good point. Perhaps the nature of the 'artifact hunters' should be based on the nature of the artifact... I do think that artifact hunters should come after your artifacts, though (if the knowledge gets out).

Also, getting rid of the artifact would presumably stop the artifact hunters, whether by trading it away, destroying it, or washing it away in a river.