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[Neonivek]

Why does healing have to be instant? Why does it have to work through "spells"? Why does it have to do the same things as medical care?

Because right now the discussion is on how much balancing healing needs instead of simply what we could do (Which we outlined ways healing could be balanced)

I am on the possition that it doesn't need much balancing and that it doesn't change the feel of the game itself.

GreatWyrmGold is on the possition that it is game breaking on its own and represents a large fraction in the feel of the game.

Ultimately we are intentionally taking opposite points in the discussion. Mind you a "Surgeon learning magical healing" does seem to hillariously negate some things here;.

[GreatWyrmGold]

My dwarves often survive combat long enough to be helped by healing magic, to say nothing of civilian injuries. If healing magic was easy, OSHA could go out the window. "Arm broken by a runaway mine cart? Drag 'im over to the church and get 'im back to mining in five!"

If your dwarf only had his arm broken then you deserve that healing

So nothing short of instant death should mean anything? I believe the common epithet of "elf" has found one of the few times it is appropriate.

No different then embarking in an area with an ample supply of easy to make Steel and safe magma to forge (or just trees)

Yeah, it is. Easy steel isn't certain, nor is it a guarantee of anything. If healing magic with no consequences was added, it would be both certain and a guarantee of "Send me your delimbed, your broken-boned, your dying. Everything will be okay."

Why does healing have to be instant? Why does it have to work through "spells"? Why does it have to do the same things as medical care?

Because right now the discussion is on how much balancing healing needs instead of simply what we could do (Which we outlined ways healing could be balanced)

I am on the possition that it doesn't need much balancing and that it doesn't change the feel of the game itself.

GreatWyrmGold is on the possition that it is game breaking on its own and represents a large fraction in the feel of the game.

Ultimately we are intentionally taking opposite points in the discussion. Mind you a "Surgeon learning magical healing" does seem to hillariously negate some things here;.

Ahem, don't put words in my digital mouth. Easy healing magic would break the game, but with some form of proper balance it would be just another strategic choice.

[Neonivek]

Ahem, don't put words in my digital mouth. Easy healing magic would break the game, but with some form of proper balance it would be just another strategic choice.

Thats what I said.

Yeah, it is. Easy steel isn't certain, nor is it a guarantee of anything. If healing magic with no consequences was added, it would be both certain and a guarantee of "Send me your delimbed, your broken-boned, your dying. Everything will be okay."

Neither is healing magic. You can near guarentee easy steel. You cannot even guarentee a world will generate with healing magic.

[Damiac]

It would be pointless to give enemies access to healing magic as a way to "Balance the game". Since as I said the issue that hurts Healing magic is just how absolutely deadly combat is.

It wouldn't help them in the least when they die in 1-2 strikes.

As well remember there is no way to gaurantee that a magician will ever develop healing magic given how it is generated. So you will be giving the enemies not only forced magicians but forced spells.

Ok since I have to say it

Here is what healing magic does

When you are sieged you send a group of 10 dwarves out. Of those 10 dwarves... 5 die, 4 are critically injured, and 1 stub their toes.

Of those 4 dwarves only 2 make it back alive. Of those 2 that come back alive only 1 gets magically healed in time and comes back good. The one who stubbed his toe goes to the doctor.

So there you go. The 'Incredibly broken healing' made sure you had one dwarf not die. Healing magic has no effect on battlefield circumstances but has everything to do with the dwarves that managed to survive the way back.

I disagree with your representation of typical battlefield casualties.  It's not uncommon to have dwarves survive, but missing a limb, or losing the ability to walk.
In your example, if there was a healer out in the battlefield, all 4 could possibly have been saved.
Even just saving 1 legendary axedwarf who would have died otherwise is a huge change.  If you just ignore that change, then the game just got easier.

What I'm suggesting is that healing magic would of course make the game easier, so you have to include some cost, or some added challenge to go with it.  Randomly getting a world with healing magic or not is not difficulty, it's randomness.  That's like saying you don't have to balance steel at all, because you might not embark with it available.

[Neonivek]

if there was a healer out in the battlefield, all 4 could possibly have been saved

No that would have just saved an additional Dwarf.

That's like saying you don't have to balance steel at all, because you might not embark with it available

Wait? Was this a parody post?

Because you don't have to balance steel at all... and you usually don't embark with it.

Steel has absolutely nothing to balance it. It is steel, it is outright better, and it is worth a lot. Worth a lot more and is much better then the effort to make it if you get the right embark. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that balances this in the game.

 

Randomly getting a world with healing magic or not is not difficulty, it's randomness

It is randomness yes, in the sense that it randomly generated an entire world in which healing magic exists.

If a world is generated with "Healing magic" then it is part of the world. It is as part of the world as everything else is.

What I'm suggesting is that healing magic would of course make the game easier

Yes but how much easier? certainly not "Easy Steel" easier. Not Trap maniac easier (even after it is fixed).

Where exactly does this "Easier" lie?

[Damiac]

if there was a healer out in the battlefield, all 4 could possibly have been saved

No that would have just saved an additional Dwarf.

Where are you getting this? Why wouldn't the magic healer be able to heal all 4 critically wounded dwarves?

That's like saying you don't have to balance steel at all, because you might not embark with it available

Wait? Was this a parody post?

Because you don't have to balance steel at all... and you usually don't embark with it.

Steel has absolutely nothing to balance it. It is steel, it is outright better, and it is worth a lot. Worth a lot more and is much better then the effort to make it if you get the right embark. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that balances this in the game.

Steel may not be well balanced, so perhaps you have a point there, but it does at least make the game a little harder, in that it's got a very high value, attracting more invaders.  I think the benefits far outweigh the costs there, so like you said, maybe not the best example.

 

Randomly getting a world with healing magic or not is not difficulty, it's randomness

It is randomness yes, in the sense that it randomly generated an entire world in which healing magic exists.

If a world is generated with "Healing magic" then it is part of the world. It is as part of the world as everything else is.
[/quote]
Ok then, so the enemies get it too.  So I guess you're agreeing with me?

What I'm suggesting is that healing magic would of course make the game easier

Yes but how much easier? certainly not "Easy Steel" easier. Not Trap maniac easier (even after it is fixed).

Where exactly does this "Easier" lie?

It's easier because... less dwarves are dead.  A pretty classic definition of easier, really.

[10ebbor10]

It would be fun to have magic be randomly generated, and each time with different drawbacks and benefits.

Sadly, it would be hell to balance.

[Neonivek]

but it does at least make the game a little harder, in that it's got a very high value, attracting more invaders

The best kind of resource would be one that is greater then its worth.

It would be fun to have magic be randomly generated, and each time with different drawbacks and benefits

It really will be.

It is why I am trying to deal with balance for balance sake shoving its way into this simulation game.

Ok then, so the enemies get it too.  So I guess you're agreeing with me?

No I am definately not agreeing with you there. I know enemies will get it too in that situation however that wouldn't be a "balance" so to speak because the value of healing for you is much greater then that for the enemy.

How many times would you really care if a dangerous enemy goes back to heal at base? never.

How many times does a truely dangerous enemy get away after doing real damage? never.

In otherwords it is a non-balance as you define it. It is like Dungeons and dragons where things like "Once per day" abilities are different for enemies as they are for you. An enemy doesn't have to preserve their power for future challenges that day and thus they are free to use it nonstop.

In this case the issue is that you either lose or you do not lose. If you lose then healing didn't help. If you do not lose then healing you do not care about. Enemies do not whittle down and they do not lose competence and the few units that do not repopulate are the kind that either die or do not die. Thus enemy assaults are no tougher with healing magic as they are without healing magic.

Think of it this way. Would a goblin siege be tougher knowing that right on the side of the map there is a small army of Legendary Surgeons and antisceptic scrubs? Of course not.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ahem, don't put words in my digital mouth. Easy healing magic would break the game, but with some form of proper balance it would be just another strategic choice.

Thats what I said.

Similar, maybe, but the way you phrased it made it sound like you thought I thought healing magic would unbalance the game, no ifs ands or buts.

Yeah, it is. Easy steel isn't certain, nor is it a guarantee of anything. If healing magic with no consequences was added, it would be both certain and a guarantee of "Send me your delimbed, your broken-boned, your dying. Everything will be okay."

Neither is healing magic. You can near guarentee easy steel. You cannot even guarentee a world will generate with healing magic.

First off: How often is the flux reader on the embark finder accurate, and how often do you find iron ore? Second off, if you can get a healer, and the game is much easier due to it, the late game will be drastically changed. I don't think that all endgames should be the same by any means, but if it's a difference between one major industry fed by a couple others being the difference between life and death for dozens of dwarves and only losing dwarves who don't make it to a cleric in time...that's not the good kind of difference.

if there was a healer out in the battlefield, all 4 could possibly have been saved

No that would have just saved an additional Dwarf.

You know a few things dwarves often die of? Blood loss and suffocation. Know what healing magic could save dwarves from if it could save them before those killed the dwarves? Arrows, hammers, spears...pretty much everything short of an axe or a lightsaber.

Randomly getting a world with healing magic or not is not difficulty, it's randomness

It is randomness yes, in the sense that it randomly generated an entire world in which healing magic exists.

If a world is generated with "Healing magic" then it is part of the world. It is as part of the world as everything else is.

Hunky-dory. That's like saying a game is balanced because everyone has a chance to be a 20th level wizard and not the 1st level peasant everyone else is.

What I'm suggesting is that healing magic would of course make the game easier

Yes but how much easier? certainly not "Easy Steel" easier. Not Trap maniac easier (even after it is fixed).

Where exactly does this "Easier" lie?

It depends.
We're working on deciding how to make it not break the game to the point where healing magic is the new danger room.

but it does at least make the game a little harder, in that it's got a very high value, attracting more invaders

The best kind of resource would be one that is greater then its worth.

Pronoun issues. Greater than what's worth?

It would be fun to have magic be randomly generated, and each time with different drawbacks and benefits

It really will be.

It is why I am trying to deal with balance for balance sake shoving its way into this simulation game.

More like "Balance for fun's sake."

Ok then, so the enemies get it too.  So I guess you're agreeing with me?

No I am definately not agreeing with you there. I know enemies will get it too in that situation however that wouldn't be a "balance" so to speak because the value of healing for you is much greater then that for the enemy.

How many times would you really care if a dangerous enemy goes back to heal at base? never.

How many times does a truely dangerous enemy get away after doing real damage? never.

In otherwords it is a non-balance as you define it. It is like Dungeons and dragons where things like "Once per day" abilities are different for enemies as they are for you. An enemy doesn't have to preserve their power for future challenges that day and thus they are free to use it nonstop.

In this case the issue is that you either lose or you do not lose. If you lose then healing didn't help. If you do not lose then healing you do not care about. Enemies do not whittle down and they do not lose competence and the few units that do not repopulate are the kind that either die or do not die. Thus enemy assaults are no tougher with healing magic as they are without healing magic.

Think of it this way. Would a goblin siege be tougher knowing that right on the side of the map there is a small army of Legendary Surgeons and antisceptic scrubs? Of course not.

Of course, it's different if the medics healed the greenskins in the field...just as bad, but in the opposite direction. Goblins can heal themselves in combat? Great, now I need to keep a healer around so I can too. Both sides are broken =/= balance. It certainly =/= Fun.

[Neonivek]

I have no place to stand if you guys don't remember how the game plays.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've lost more dwarves to blood loss and suffocation than decapitation or bisection. Please be more specific.

[Neonivek]

I've lost more dwarves to blood loss and suffocation than decapitation or bisection. Please be more specific.

Everything.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've lost more dwarves to blood loss and suffocation than decapitation or bisection. Please be more specific.

Everything.

...
*checks post*
Erm, since when does "Please be more specific" mean "Go ahead, restate your point more vaguely"?

[Kazymir]

I've lost more dwarves to blood loss and suffocation than decapitation or bisection. Please be more specific.

Everything.

...
*checks post*
Erm, since when does "Please be more specific" mean "Go ahead, restate your point more vaguely"?

When someone lacks the ability to explain themselves, and decide instead to troll.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've lost more dwarves to blood loss and suffocation than decapitation or bisection. Please be more specific.

Everything.

...
*checks post*
Erm, since when does "Please be more specific" mean "Go ahead, restate your point more vaguely"?

When someone lacks the ability to explain themselves, and decide instead to troll.

Why does everyone mistake me for a troll.
I have lost dwarves to injuries that are not instadeath. Such injuries are the commonest way for my dwarves to go, not counting "dwarven stupidity" and "player mistakes." Clearly, instadeath is not something we can say happens to EVERY dwarf. Therefore, your point needs explaining. I wonder what part of "how the game plays" we are forgetting...