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[10ebbor10]

The main issue with trying to balance healing magic is that there's nothing precious for it to cost.  I would think you could require expensive tools, and expensive reagents, maybe items crafted out of gold, platinum, etc.  But as we know, that stuff isn't really all that rare, and fortresses are outrageously wealthy quite quickly. 

Would 1,000,000 dwarfbucks be a fair cost to a full heal? It'd be worth it to save your legendary axelord, but not so much for your dabbling wrestler.  I think that's the direction to look in, not some easy to obtain resource, like blood or cheesemakers.  I would think attaching a dwarfbuck cost to each spell also means you can track the value of magic used, and then use that to attract powerful magic enemies.  Maybe over time the "attractiveness" would fall a bit, so if you only use magic once a year or so, you won't attract legions of horrors.

Ehh. Why not the bones of a forgotten beast or titan. That way it is (probably) difficult to obtain and gives you a reason you can't just hide out from them

Yeah, adding an idiotly large cost is not a good way to balance something. You'd either make it useless, or overpowered, there's almost no way to strike a balance. A better way is to work with chances, or things that happen only every so often. 

So healing magic wouldn't be difficult to do, or work with an arbitraty level up system. Instead, doing a full body heal with minimal resources is possible, but dangerous. It might cause infection(Healing increases mitosis of cells, and unfortunately got bacteria too), might end up with an incorrectly regrown body part, or maybe the enormous pains associated permanently scar the dwarf in question. The healer can have several bad effects too, depending on how the healing works out.

[JesterHell696]

I thought that reagents and its ilk were more of an alchemical/potion making type of deal, like a healing potion that increases the base healing rate, lowering recuperation time and maybe regenerating necrotic tissues and nerve damage at high levels with rare reagents like the afore mentioned forgotten beast bone. 
 
I've imagined magic being a necromancer type ability (that unlocks with skill increases e.g. novice-heal cuts proficient-mend broken bones Professional-heal damaged nerves grand master-regenerate lost limbs) that cause the user to become exhausted and if used when exhausted backfires, as you currently have to read a necromancers book to learn necromancy reading and studying could be the main way of training, with skill XP gains being low that it'll take 10 - 20 years or more for an unskilled dwarf to go from dabbing to legendary. 
 
As for cost as a balance, assuming normal medical is free once the economy is back in, magical medical might not be and could cost that dwarfs own dwarfbucks with perhaps a "fund" for military dwarfs of Lord levels put in place by the administration. 
 
The only other thing I can think of is making the ability to learn magic at all limited in the same way as the social skill's of Liar and Conversationalist, making a dwarf who can use and learn magic the rare resource rather then a reagent.
 
I admittedly don't think there is a really good way to balance magic with out it seaming like it's purposefully nerfed.
 

[GreatWyrmGold]

The main issue with trying to balance healing magic is that there's nothing precious for it to cost.  I would think you could require expensive tools, and expensive reagents, maybe items crafted out of gold, platinum, etc.  But as we know, that stuff isn't really all that rare, and fortresses are outrageously wealthy quite quickly. 

Would 1,000,000 dwarfbucks be a fair cost to a full heal? It'd be worth it to save your legendary axelord, but not so much for your dabbling wrestler.  I think that's the direction to look in, not some easy to obtain resource, like blood or cheesemakers.  I would think attaching a dwarfbuck cost to each spell also means you can track the value of magic used, and then use that to attract powerful magic enemies.  Maybe over time the "attractiveness" would fall a bit, so if you only use magic once a year or so, you won't attract legions of horrors.

There's more ways than direct material costs to balance magic. You could also reduce benefits or cause more notable costs. Why don't you check earlier in the thread.
For instance, there could be limits to how much it could be used--only ten times a year per priest, maybe--so healing the warriors after the first big siege of the year might mean you'll lose your legendary miner when a forgotten beast rips his arm off. Or magic could cost things that matter. Our imagination is the limit while it's still in the suggestions subforum!

[Damiac]

I have read through this whole thread... I don't know what you mean by that.
My reasoning for suggesting such a huge price is simple.  It's a real sacrifice, you're not gonna be able to just come up with that every time a cheesemaker stubs his toe, or even gets his leg ripped off.  But it's also not so unreasonable that you'd never use it.  A fully trained warrior is a huge time investment(especially if danger rooms are nerfed out).  1 million dwarfbucks is a ton, but I think I would trade it to keep my best warrior alive.  But if that's excessive, it can be modified, it's hard to say for sure.

I'm just opposed to making healing magic easy or cheap.  People seem to be talking like all you have to do is balance it so surgery isn't useless.  I disagree, I think even if it's riskier than surgery, you'd still always use it when there's no alternative.  What's now a dead or permanently crippled dwarf could potentially be a fully recovered, or possibly infected/mutated dwarf.  That's no loss, it's better than you have now.  Instead of a 100% useless dwarf, you have a 50/50 chance (or whatever your odds would be) of a useful dwarf, where there was no chance before.

So inherent risk to healing magic is not in and of itself a balance.  A giant cost (especially if it adds a chance of invasion) is a good balancer.  And it seems to fit the theme of DF, where having more money and power attracts greater enemies.  I'm also trying to avoid a common problem, where it starts off hard to get, but once you get over the hump, it just makes the game even easier.  In my opinion, this means healing magic is suitably rare, without being impossible, random, or annoying.  I want to add options, not make the game easier.

Obviously, this is just a suggestion thread, but I do take a little offense at having my idea called idiotic, or suggesting that I haven't even read the posts in the thread...  I'm just contributing ideas, like everyone else here.

[Neonivek]

Dwarf Fortress isn't so much a game of balance for me.

A perfectly pristine area with a lot of resources is outright better then a hellish location. With absolutely no trade off.

Weapons are better then others with no trade off. Professions are better then others with no trade off.

The fact that the more money you have is linked to how much attention you get is more linked to simply becoming known and having treasure.

Thus gameplay becomes more of an arms race then a game of trade off. This aspect though is just HEAVILY weakened because of almighty strategies.

Healing to me doesn't even need balancers anyway because you all HIGHLY overestimate its usefulness.

[10ebbor10]

A huge price is not a way to balance something. You'd either make it OP, or underpowered. It's not that logical either.

 Besides, dwarf fortress is not a game of perfect balance. It's a game of chances, and coherent rules

Again, my quote

A game where one strategy is superior, is not a game, but a puzzle.

If you balance everything, you always get one superior strategy.

This doesn't mean that everything has to be random, or that adding a cost isn't a solution. Nor does it mean that healing magic should be cheap. It means that you can never be sure, that you can't have an Instant Sure Heal  button even if you pay a few million dwarf bucks for it. So rather than having a few million needed, I'd allow for a variety of healing ways. You could try the standard hospital ways, or some of the more magical things. You could let your apprentice magicians try, but with the risk that your warrior comes back wrong, you could offer a ton of dwarfbucks to the Gods, and pray for a hopefull victory.

So yeah, just a small chance from:
1 mil dwarfbucks --> Insta heal
tp
A lot of dwarfbucks --> Large change of instaheal
...

[hops]

just admit it you guys want OP magic to fix everything.

[10ebbor10]

just admit it you guys want OP magic to fix everything.

One that fixes trolling would help yeah.

Also, I don't want OP magic that fixes everything. I want magic that might create more problems than I started with.

[Candlejack]

A perfectly pristine area with a lot of resources is outright better then a hellish location. With absolutely no trade off.

One is a lot less Fun.

[GreatWyrmGold]

just admit it you guys want OP magic to fix everything.

One that fixes trolling would help yeah.

Also, I don't want OP magic that fixes everything. I want magic that might create more problems than I started with.

Agreed. Objective, this is a thread discussing how to make magic not OP.

A perfectly pristine area with a lot of resources is outright better then a hellish location. With absolutely no trade off.

One is a lot less Fun.

Yeah, but does that count? And does it matter?

[Damiac]

Sure, it could be balanced with risk and cost, rather than strictly cost.  That fits the theme of DF rather well anyway. 
My biggest point is that it shouldn't make the game easier.  It should just add more options, with more risks to go with them. 

If you make no attempt to balance it, as some seem to suggest, you just make the game a little easier, and potentially make surgeons become obsolete. As it stands now, no profession really ever becomes obsolete, although maybe some become redundant, like fisherman, etc.  I think multiple food types should offer a happiness bonus, but that's all beside the point.

The other way to balance healing magic, of course, is simply to give enemies access to it as well.  Then you can just have battlefield clerics on both sides.  That might be the simplest answer, and then you don't need to attach a huge cost to it.  I still think training should be somewhat difficult, but then the risks of battle should sufficiently balance the utility of a healer on the field.  Especially if enemy archers actively target them.

[Neonivek]

It would be pointless to give enemies access to healing magic as a way to "Balance the game". Since as I said the issue that hurts Healing magic is just how absolutely deadly combat is.

It wouldn't help them in the least when they die in 1-2 strikes.

As well remember there is no way to gaurantee that a magician will ever develop healing magic given how it is generated. So you will be giving the enemies not only forced magicians but forced spells.

Ok since I have to say it

Here is what healing magic does

When you are sieged you send a group of 10 dwarves out. Of those 10 dwarves... 5 die, 4 are critically injured, and 1 stub their toes.

Of those 4 dwarves only 2 make it back alive. Of those 2 that come back alive only 1 gets magically healed in time and comes back good. The one who stubbed his toe goes to the doctor.

So there you go. The 'Incredibly broken healing' made sure you had one dwarf not die. Healing magic has no effect on battlefield circumstances but has everything to do with the dwarves that managed to survive the way back.

[GreatWyrmGold]

My dwarves often survive combat long enough to be helped by healing magic, to say nothing of civilian injuries. If healing magic was easy, OSHA could go out the window. "Arm broken by a runaway mine cart? Drag 'im over to the church and get 'im back to mining in five!"

[Neonivek]

My dwarves often survive combat long enough to be helped by healing magic, to say nothing of civilian injuries. If healing magic was easy, OSHA could go out the window. "Arm broken by a runaway mine cart? Drag 'im over to the church and get 'im back to mining in five!"

If your dwarf only had his arm broken then you deserve that healing

No different then embarking in an area with an ample supply of easy to make Steel and safe magma to forge (or just trees)

[Candlejack]

Why does healing have to be instant? Why does it have to work through "spells"? Why does it have to do the same things as medical care?