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[Hapah]

(PPE: Toaster: I think you tied the vote? Can you explain why you moved your vote? I don't see what you see, concerning either Tir's answer or your "case" on Shake.)

I'm going to put my vote on Tiruin, though I'd love to know where the hell Toaster's shift to Shake came from. I can't follow it. Apologies for the delay; RL came up and I wanted to reread the day. Made a pot of coffee just so I could finish this damn thing.

IO and Shake have just lurked for most of the day, the former more than the latter. ZU is new (and Jim didn't join us this day), so nothing there. UI and Toaster have been needling Tiruin for four pages, but it's been the bulk of our content for the day. (PPE: And Toaster's shift to Shake seems a little funny, but it's probably just because I'm tired and can't fit the pieces together)

The whole Tiruin....thing started with either this post, or maybe this post. The first post appears to be a reply to Dar's oddball theory that the spy team is stacked with "weak" players, and I see nothing suspicious about it. The second one does confuse me, though. And his posts go off the rails after that point, in a way: I've got to read some of the stuff after that two or three times to figure out what he's getting at. I still can't find out how Tir came up with what he did, but apparently Toaster sees the answer.

Dar's had some really oddball theories and tried to dismiss my (imo) very well-crafted argument by pulling things out of his ass. I can't say I much care for it.

For what it's worth, I think Tolyk did come into contact with Chloroform, likely through an "inspect" on someone (Question to others: Are LNCP inspect results usually fuzzy like Tolyk's was, or are they explicit?). I don't think he knew what he had found. If he was going to try to pin it on someone and knew what it was he would have been more explicit. It's possible that one of his buddies has (had?) Chloroform and he completely faked the inspect, but if that's the case it was very clever of him to put it out there the way he did. The open question is whether or not you can trust that a Spy targeted who he said he did, and if chloroform is as damning as I made it out to be.

And I've one last suggestion for everyone (though this one is admittedly a stretch, and we probably won't even need it. I need to go to bed, lol). Kommandant says there are four spies. If we lynch a spy today and Kommandant says "Good work, we got all the spies, let's get on with the mission", you can bet your ass I'm going along with it. He's a large man with a large-caliber handgun and a larger temper, and I don't want to end up on the wrong side of any of them. We can try to work the teams out amongst ourselves, but as far as I'm concerned Kommandant is always right, because he has a gun. Be careful, is all I'm trying to say.

[lordnincompoop]

Votecount:

zombie urist	- 0 -
Tiruin	- 3 -	Urist Imiknorris, Shakerag, Hapah
Toaster	- 0 -
Dariush	- 1 -	Tiruin
IronyOwl	- 0 -
Urist Imiknorris	- 0 -
Hapah	- 0 -
Shakerag	- 2 -	Dariush, Toaster
-
Not Voting	- 2 -	zombie urist, IronyOwl
No Lynch	- 0 -

IronyOwl has been prodded.

The Day has been modextended to Thursday, 8PM GMT.

I wanted to give zombie urist a little extra time because of the replace. There are no more Extends left for this Day.

[zombie urist]

I thought the day was going to end tomorrow at 8 GMT anyways.  Can you give an exact date?

Hapah what are your reasons for your vote on Tiruin? So far I can only see that his posts are confusing, but TBH there not too unusual for him.

Toaster can you show where does it look like Shakerag is trying to find out who killed DS?

UI please summarize your case on Tiruin.

Dariush your ideas are really implausible. Seriously LNCP purposefully giving scum roles to weak players? I agree with Hapah's arguments more than yours.

Tiruin can you please summurize your case on Dariush.

[IronyOwl]

Hapah:

For what it's worth, I think Tolyk did come into contact with Chloroform, likely through an "inspect" on someone (Question to others: Are LNCP inspect results usually fuzzy like Tolyk's was, or are they explicit?). I don't think he knew what he had found. If he was going to try to pin it on someone and knew what it was he would have been more explicit. It's possible that one of his buddies has (had?) Chloroform and he completely faked the inspect, but if that's the case it was very clever of him to put it out there the way he did. The open question is whether or not you can trust that a Spy targeted who he said he did, and if chloroform is as damning as I made it out to be.

I have not been able to reread enough to find anything about chloroform. Is this related to the "perfume" someone found?

And I've one last suggestion for everyone (though this one is admittedly a stretch, and we probably won't even need it. I need to go to bed, lol). Kommandant says there are four spies. If we lynch a spy today and Kommandant says "Good work, we got all the spies, let's get on with the mission", you can bet your ass I'm going along with it. He's a large man with a large-caliber handgun and a larger temper, and I don't want to end up on the wrong side of any of them. We can try to work the teams out amongst ourselves, but as far as I'm concerned Kommandant is always right, because he has a gun. Be careful, is all I'm trying to say.

What exactly are you saying here? Do you think there's more than four spies, but we should act like there aren't?

[Dariush]

1.) And there wouldn't be an struggle? Is your assassin nine feet tall? He must be, to be able to slit the man's throat and pin both arms to keep DS from struggling.
2.) To what end? Makes no sense.
3.) Really?

1) No, he would be able to slit a man's throat so that he'd bleed out too fast to be able to do anything about it.
2) ...So the corpse wouldn't be found? That's pretty obvious, really.
3) Ya rly.
Also, nice twisting of my words in the next post.

Dariush your ideas are really implausible. Seriously LNCP purposefully giving scum roles to weak players? I agree with Hapah's arguments more than yours.

So, connecting a FLIPPED SPY BECAUSE I REALLY CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH's supposed discovery of a sweet-smelling liquid in my tent with chloroform that also happens to be sweet-smelling and colourless (both of which are obviously extremely unique characteristics) with the fact that DS didn't struggle when he was killed makes more sense than an obvious explanation of the unprecedented ratio of scum-to-town deaths?

Tiruin's posts are just hard to understand as usual, but I don't really see anything terribly scummy.

Ignoring all flips so far and then backtracking and horribly twisting own words doesn't qualify as 'terribly scummy' anymore?

Shakerag and IO have been kinda lurky.

Eleven posts in the entire game, four of which are PFPs blahblah I said all this before is 'kinda lurky'?

Are you sure you've been reading the correct game?

[Hapah]

PFP

I have not been able to reread enough to find anything about chloroform. Is this related to the "perfume" someone found?

Correct. Tolyk (a now-confirmed Spy, so, y'know. Grain of salt.) claimed he found a vial of a sweet-smelling liquid which he guessed might be perfume. I played CSI: Nazi Camp with that information and the conditions surrounding DS's death to determine that it was probably chloroform or a similar drug(this post)

What exactly are you saying here? Do you think there's more than four spies, but we should act like there aren't?

All I know is Kommandant has a gun and a temper, and isn't afraid to use either. If he says there are four spies, I'm not going to correct him. What you do is your business. The more I think about it the more I think it's irrelevant, but I was tired and it made perfect sense.

Dar: If I stretched your words, it wasn't by much. And I still think your answers are crap.

[Toaster]

Hapah:  I didn't realize Tiruin was being sarcastic with his comment about spy flips, and generally misunderstood it.  I'm not really following his case, but I don't think he's the best lynch target any more, especially since my case on him hinged entirely on that point.

I didn't count votes- I was half falling at that point.

Shakerag I covered here.  He's far too interested in finding out who killed Deathsword (a spy) and seeing him gone, regardless of the alignment of the killer.  He tipped his hand by FoSing Dariush, his main suspect of that.  I'm pretty confident now that Shakerag is a teammate of Deathsword and he is seeking revenge.


Zombie U:  The above paragraph should answer your question.

[Shakerag]

Unvote.  I think I need to make heads or tails of what's going on.

Tiruin's feeling less scummy to me for now, the more I look at it.  I think it's more of a ... language barrier thing. 

TolyK may have been a spy, but I think his information *may* be legit regardless.  I have an investigative power myself.

N1: Visited Jim.  Found an old, well used compass in a coat pocket.  Poor lighting didn't allow me to see much more than it was a compass.

N2: Visited Toaster.  Didn't find anything in his coat.  Faintly noticed a sweet smell apparently coming from his face.  Found a leather case in his back pocket, but had to put it back and leave before I could check it out. 

If TolyK was telling the truth about Dariush having a vial of a clear, sweet smelling liquid (that could very possibly be chloroform), and I happened to notice a sweet smell about Toaster's face ... that makes me think Dariush is quite likely a roleblocker.  Assuming TolyK was being truthful, of course. 

Although, that makes me wonder ... since TolyK was a spy, why did he have an inspect?  He could have made what he said up, but it seems to collaborate with what I've found ...


Toaster:  Why exactly do you think I'm aligned with Deathsword again?  Quite frankly, I'm rather lost myself at this moment in time, so I'm not even sure *I* know what I'm doing here.  Frankly, it seems like Hapah is showing way more effort in the "track down who killed Deathsword" thing than I am. 

@279: I have no buddies to kill, therefore I cannot be mad about it.  At that point in time, things seemed to be indicating that Dariush may have a night kill.  Generally, that's going to paint him as either scum or a vig.  Since there was the possibility of him being scum (although, apparently he would have had to have killed a spy he didn't know about somehow), I FoSed him.  Now I'm inclined to think that Dariush may not have a killing role, however.  I think roleblockers are frequently scum, but it's certainly possible for town to have a roleblocker as well.

Also, what's in your leather case?


Hapah:  What you make of this new information in regards to your theorycrafting?


Also, I'm wondering now if the spies don't know who each other are.  Would it be odd for a spy team to have three nationalities on it like that?

[Hapah]

PFP

Let me think on it for a bit.

[Tiruin]

PFP Returned at a very late hour and-

The Day has been modextended to Thursday, 8PM GMT.

OH YES! THANK YOU!


@Hapah: Those two things you linked are unconnected. The response in relation to LNCP's words was affected by what I saw in other games - the statement to Dariush there was based on him judging full Spy flips to the current situation. On that second link - I presume you're talking about my statement on the artefact?

He did state it played a role in our position right now. It does, in a way that we're all tied to it in the current idea (but we're focusing on the living, present targets. Not something we only have vague details about), but I got lost on how it related to our current situation - different from the idea that it feels like it is tied to the roles. I'm not sure if this is worded right due to fatigue, but I'm saying that his way of saying the artifact feels like it plays of a more definite role than just flavor. Pointing the artifact out, or anything affected by it, as the unknown threat mentioned earlier. (correct if gotten wrong - bottom of link)

On your idea if Spy or No Spy - what if the game continues after four Spies have been killed? Given the Experimental case of this game, what would you expect to happen?

Tiruin can you please summurize your case on Dariush.

> Overreaction to being called an imbecile and actually suspecting the person who called him such - focusing on the imbecile part other than calling the rest of the post which carried it, crap.
> Ambiguous statement regarding the response to Hapah's question on the death - pulled out from hammerspace and made obviously such. Not serious with the idea. While this does seem more like a meta tell than a scumtell, his opinions (inserting a scummy comment in most of his presumed targets' cases ; pointing out someone twisting words, without giving the evidence) say otherwise.

Spoiler: More on that point (click to show/hide)

I see Dariush is up to one of his plans in inciting reaction via ego-attack on opposing statements to his belief. While this is reasonably not a scumtell in itself (yea for goading people on!), it is not supported by quotes or links or any snipped part of the post which he refers to. Examples are prevalent in his more recent posts to this.

> Theory regarding the Spies - newbies? Forced role giving? Trying to Outthink the GM...


IronyOwl: RL been holding you up?

Anyway: TolyK's statement on sweet-smelling liquid after stating perfume.

PPE: Shakerag/Hapah
So I take it, investigate-styled actions are rendered vague and flavory other than being point-blank and direct?

Although, that makes me wonder ... since TolyK was a spy, why did he have an inspect?  He could have made what he said up, but it seems to collaborate with what I've found ...

You mean he shares the idea of sweet-smelling liquids? And what do you think of his idea of shifting straight from perfume to specifically a sweet-smelling liquid (out of all ways to describe perfume) - coincidence or...?

Toaster:[...]

@279: I have no buddies to kill, therefore I cannot be mad about it.  At that point in time, things seemed to be indicating that Dariush may have a night kill.  Generally, that's going to paint him as either scum or a vig.  Since there was the possibility of him being scum (although, apparently he would have had to have killed a spy he didn't know about somehow), I FoSed him.  Now I'm inclined to think that Dariush may not have a killing role, however.  I think roleblockers are frequently scum, but it's certainly possible for town to have a roleblocker as well.

Also, what's in your leather case?

Roleblocker whatnow? Where did a roleblocker appear in this equation?

Toaster: Did you do...anything with your face? Meaning, did you know if you've been visited?
And what were you thinking on asking UI a question such as:

PPE:  Urist I: I didn't ask you.  Is Tiruin your buddy too?

upon being answered 'no.'

Tiruin [...] more of a ... language barrier thing. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 

It's more of stress and timezones, actually. Mostly the timezones. I try to make my posts detailed and concise (which I need to work on) because mostly, every other player has their free-response time when I'm unavailable - if asked, time is being spent in replying.

[Hapah]

Long PFP during lunch

On your idea if Spy or No Spy - what if the game continues after four Spies have been killed? Given the Experimental case of this game, what would you expect to happen?

I imagine we'll get down to business and start trying to find the artifact/tech, once the Kommandant is satisfied that the Spy threat has been dealt with. Maybe we'll even get told some info about it, if we're lucky. Beyond that, I don't really know.

Shake: Very interesting. I'll go through it bit by bit, but I don't have time to hit everything.

TolyK may have been a spy, but I think his information *may* be legit regardless.  I have an investigative power myself.

I tend to agree with the first point, at least. I think he did inspect someone and relayed the information he found, though I can't be certain that he visited who he said he did. Also, why claim now? Does the fact that the last person to claim an inspect turned out to be a Spy and was hanged for his trouble worry you at all?

N1: Visited Jim.  Found an old, well used compass in a coat pocket.  Poor lighting didn't allow me to see much more than it was a compass.

Jim claimed that he specialized in guerrilla warfare (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117245.msg3735304#msg3735304). I could imagine a compass being an almost vital piece of equipment for someone who was regularly behind enemy lines, so I guess this might be a mark in his favor? Thoughts?

N2: Visited Toaster.  Didn't find anything in his coat.  Faintly noticed a sweet smell apparently coming from his face.  Found a leather case in his back pocket, but had to put it back and leave before I could check it out.

Now this is interesting, if true. I'm hoping Toaster can confirm that something happened to him N2. What made you leave, Shake?

I think roleblockers are frequently scum, but it's certainly possible for town to have a roleblocker as well.

If roleblocks are happening via chloroform, I'm inclined to think the blocker would more likely be town than scum, in this case (but I need to give it some more thought). The reason that immediately jumps to mind is that I've no idea why a spy would knock someone out like that and then let him live; it'd be a very easy and clean kill, I think. The fact that the person was completely defenseless but not killed suggests to me that the drugger doesn't want to throw away good men on a hunch, which would mean the drugger is probably town.

Could also be that chloroform doubles as a block and some sort of super-inspect, since whoever you drugged would be dead to the world (I feel like I'm on pretty shaky footing with this bit, though). Was Toaster sleeping really soundly? Do you have any idea?

[Shakerag]

Hapah:

Also, why claim now? Does the fact that the last person to claim an inspect turned out to be a Spy and was hanged for his trouble worry you at all?

Mostly because I feel pretty lost in this game, so I figured throwing out the info I gathered could only help overall.  Maybe someone will piece together something I missed (or will have additional information to shed light on what I found out).  I'm not terribly concerned, because in my experience it's awfully damn rare for scum to have an investigative role.  That's the one thing that makes me wonder about TolyK's claim.  But then LNCP has indicated that this game will be unusual, so I'm not sure what to think.

Jim claimed that he specialized in guerrilla warfare (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117245.msg3735304#msg3735304). I could imagine a compass being an almost vital piece of equipment for someone who was regularly behind enemy lines, so I guess this might be a mark in his favor? Thoughts?

Looking back at his flavor, that seems like it would fit, yes.  Although, to be fair, if we found out it was an American-made compass or something ...

Now this is interesting, if true. I'm hoping Toaster can confirm that something happened to him N2. What made you leave, Shake?

According to my PM, I "heard something outside" and apparently decided it was time to leave.

Was Toaster sleeping really soundly? Do you have any idea?

My PM didn't state one way or another.  Given that I was leaning in close to his face and I patted him down to find the leather case without him waking, I'd guess so.


Tiruin:

You mean he shares the idea of sweet-smelling liquids? And what do you think of his idea of shifting straight from perfume to specifically a sweet-smelling liquid (out of all ways to describe perfume) - coincidence or...?

Well, TolyK claims to have found a sweet smelling liquid on Dariush.  I apparently noticed as a significant detail that Toaster's face smelled "sweet".  Sure, it could be coincidence, but I thought it was noteworthy enough to mention.  I'm not well versed in perfumes (and I have no idea to the extent that TolyK is knowledgeable about them either), so I'm not sure if calling a sweet-smelling liquid a "perfume" is a large stretch or not. 

Roleblocker whatnow? Where did a roleblocker appear in this equation?

Well, going off what Hapah has deduced, I assume the sweet smell on Toaster was from chloroform, and given that Toaster isn't dead, one might conclude he was knocked out.  What kind of role would fit an action where someone got knocked out for the night?  Roleblocker. 

[Toaster]

Shakerag:  Time to repeat myself again.

Hapah:  I'm having trouble disagreeing with your detectivorizing.  If TolyK really was some kind of spy rolecop (maybe extra abilities aren't being shown in the roleflips?), and he did find such a thing on Dariush ... then Dariush is either scum or a vig. 

This right here is what I have issue with.  You're saying Dariush is, by deduction, either scum or a vig.  There are two issues.  One, you're not offering any opinions or insight as to which you think it is.  Two, you're pointing your FoS at him, meaning you're condemning him.  This is tipping your hand- you suspect he's killed Deathsword and, crucially, you take offense.  The only reason you'd take offense is if Deathsword is your scumbuddy.  Ergo, you are scum.

Hapah is just investigating in general- you're jumping to a conclusion.

As for the case, it's my Iron Cross.  I keep it with me at all times to remind myself that I'm doing a good job for the German cause, and my efforts are not in vain nor unrecognized.  I need this affirmation to keep down my insecurity.


Tiruin:  I wasn't told I was blocked, given a sweet-smelling liquid, or anything of the sort.

I object in general to people answering questions for others, especially when it comes to explaining words or motives.

[zombie urist]

I did another brief reread and something that jumped out at me is that everybody who claimed claimed "finding some artifact" as their win con, including the flipped spies.

I am also going to believe Shakerag's claim as I do in fact have a compass. Since Toaster denies being given a sweet smelling liquid, either Shakerag is lying about inspecting him or Toaster is about being drugged. Another interesting thing I picked up on is that Toaster tried to smell someone else. The kicker however is that Toaster does admit to having a leather case, where he keeps his Iron Cross. I find it strange that one would keep a badge in a case instead of proudly displaying it on one's uniform.

If roleblocks are happening via chloroform, I'm inclined to think the blocker would more likely be town than scum, in this case (but I need to give it some more thought). The reason that immediately jumps to mind is that I've no idea why a spy would knock someone out like that and then let him live; it'd be a very easy and clean kill, I think. The fact that the person was completely defenseless but not killed suggests to me that the drugger doesn't want to throw away good men on a hunch, which would mean the drugger is probably town.
Could also be that chloroform doubles as a block and some sort of super-inspect, since whoever you drugged would be dead to the world (I feel like I'm on pretty shaky footing with this bit, though). Was Toaster sleeping really soundly? Do you have any idea?

This is very WIFOM-y.

[Hapah]

Looking back at his flavor, that seems like it would fit, yes.  Although, to be fair, if we found out it was an American-made compass or something ...

True enough. I did a quick search and couldn't find much of interest. I do wonder how you'd tell where a compass was made, though: unless it had something descriptive on there like a company name or "Made in X" it'd just be a circle with N/S/E/W on it and a needle.

My PM didn't state one way or another.  Given that I was leaning in close to his face and I patted him down to find the leather case without him waking, I'd guess so.

I wonder if you would've found the case if he hadn't been drugged.

PPE:

ZU: Good to know about the compass. I would point out that it's possible Toaster was drugged while he slept (I've no idea what the aftereffects of chloroform would be). Though your observation about the Iron Cross is a valid one, I think.

This is very WIFOM-y.

Fair enough, though I think the second bit of the stuff you quoted is moreso than the first bit. Figured I'd at least get it out there.