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[zombie urist]

How is that a misrepresentation? Day 3 is virtually the endgame, especially for a game like this.
I also note that Shakerag asked you this same question, which you ignored.
Then elaborate on his intentions instead of laughing about it knowingly to yourself.

I looked through the past few BYO* games and found that BYOC ended N3. BYOR8 ended N3, BYOR8 ended D5, BYOP2 ended N4, BYOP ended D5 and BYOT went all the way to D7. Also note that BYOC had only 10 players compared to this game's 14. I'm pretty sure I answered when Shakerag asked.
I think Shakerag's intention was to trick Penngo in saying yes, then bitch at him until he got lynched, since Penngo is a less experienced player.

Please explain how lurking all game can be potentially effective. Please explain how eating ice cream can be potentially effective.

Maybe the lurker has some reflecting ability like I did in BYOP2, and someone else redirected the scum to him. Maybe the lurker is a PGO and the scum attacked him. Maybe while eating ice cream, I accidentally spill some onto my keyboard causing me to lurk and reducing it to the previous scenario. Obviously these are extremely unlikely, but thats the point I'm making. While it is possible RVS might reveal scum, it is extremely unlikely.

@First: But I didn't. Did I?
@Second: And you did nothing about it but attack him.
Lastly, is your concern going anywhere other than you pointing it out?

While you do have an opinion, back it up with something useful other than just pointing out others' words.
Checked the Lurker Tracker [Yes it works, though I'm not sure how as proceeding tries fail.]
Bookthras has 6 posts which match with IronyOwl, Jim Groovester, penngo009 while Think0028 has 4.
Though, you are right at the fact that Bookthras has only one other post in-game, I'd like to know why you're just putting out that concern while not asking him anything about it.
Also, what are your reads on everyone?

1. Yes you did by claiming it was not a strawman.
2. Nothing about what? And what's wrong with attacking him?
3. Yes.

I don't care how many posts he made out of game, since those don't contain any useful information. I'm putting out the concern so hopefully he will see and give an explanaiton.

To be fair, for all we know there could have been unpredictable bullshit happening during RVS.  Jim could have, to pull an example out of air, been targeted with a day ability that turned him into a fish.  In hindsight, it may have been ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek as well.
And, again, it was a joke.  A bit of banter, if you will.  A playful ribbing aimed at our dearly beloved Dariush.

Just... no. Thats way to bastardly for this kind of game and it makes it look like you're making shit up.

[Tiruin]

Missed a question, bro.

@First: But I didn't. Did I?
@Second: And you did nothing about it but attack him.
Lastly, is your concern going anywhere other than you pointing it out?

While you do have an opinion, back it up with something useful other than just pointing out others' words.
Checked the Lurker Tracker [Yes it works, though I'm not sure how as proceeding tries fail.]
Bookthras has 6 posts which match with IronyOwl, Jim Groovester, penngo009 while Think0028 has 4.
Though, you are right at the fact that Bookthras has only one other post in-game, I'd like to know why you're just putting out that concern while not asking him anything about it.
Also, what are your reads on everyone?

1. Yes you did by claiming it was not a strawman.
2. Nothing about what? And what's wrong with attacking him?
3. Yes.

I don't care how many posts he made out of game, since those don't contain any useful information. I'm putting out the concern so hopefully he will see and give an explanaiton.

@Orange: Claryifing the doubt.

@Green:

Spoiler: Green'd statement in full (click to show/hide)

Although I'm wording it my own way, I'm doing my best to preserve the original meaning in the post. You are defending Shakerag because you are questioning my arguments instead of him. Yes I've been serious this entire game so far.

So you want to deflect onto Shakerag because of the fact that I'm questioning your arguments? How does that make sense?

I want Shakerag to answer my arguments and not you. This is not a deflection onto Shakerag.

@First: But I didn't. Did I?[...]

1. Yes you did by claiming it was not a strawman.

...

So by what you say; I answered

Although I'm wording it my own way, I'm doing my best to preserve the original meaning in the post. You are defending Shakerag because you are questioning my arguments instead of him. Yes I've been serious this entire game so far.

So you want to deflect onto Shakerag because of the fact that I'm questioning your arguments? How does that make sense?

I want Shakerag to answer my arguments and not you. This is not a deflection onto Shakerag.

Through claim.

Alright,

Spoiler: Let's pull what you're claiming is a strawman (click to show/hide)

As for Shakerag I feel like(In my opinion) that mass claiming earlier does a better deal then late. Now I believe that because when people claim what they have done in the night, that it becomes a puzzle of figuring out who is lying, and I feel like that can be a reliable way of finding scum. Now, that isn't saying you can claim what you've done during the night as well.

So does that mean you'd like to call for a D1 massclaim?  Or a D2 massclaim?  Also, why aren't you voting anyone?

Although I don't agree with penngo's statement, this is a strawman of what he is saying. Also answer my question.

Let's see my "answer". Or more specifically, this one.

Spoiler: Your case, originally? (click to show/hide)

Shakerag mostly for his bad questions.

And then you blow the case of his assumed strawman up along with me 'defending' him, slowly turning the conversation from pressing Shakerag on his 'strawman' into answering me and pointing out that I'm 'defending' him without presenting proof or at least your train of thought!

Basically, all you're saying is: "He's defending him..................He's defending him......" And why?

You are defending Shakerag because you are questioning my arguments instead of him. Yes I've been serious this entire game so far. 

Even after he [penngo009] answered this 'strawman' of yours [which you didn't push on, given that strawmanning is a scumtell] and which he [still penngo009] didn't carry on or reinforce.

Lastly, re-reading, this seems like you don't want someone else questioning you. Your target has answered, and you seem to be evading my questions.

Spoiler: My questions? (click to show/hide)

>What are your reads on everyone.
>Sum up your case on Shakerag.

You don't push the guy you're claiming a strawman on, and if it was a strawman, then it'd be a very risky one because...it's D1. Explanation of why is in the Mafiascum wiki article.

A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.

[Bookthras]

Toaster:

Further, I notice you didn't respond to any of the answers to your starter RVS post.

I seldom acknowledge answers (especially RVS answers) unless they need a follow up; these didn't, they answered the questions well enough.

I'd say it is equally you that needs to post more reads and get more involved...

Agreed, see below my response to Imiknorris about this.

What's your view on those votes?  Does TolyK deserve them?

They seemed odd, I wasn't sure I understood why they were cast, and one right after the other, so asking others could help clarify. I read your take on it and it seems fair, but no, I don't think I'd have voted him over those reasons... which may be just a difference of opinion, or it may mean Tiruin and/or Dariush are jumpy and eager to find something to latch onto. Time will tell.

Book: State your main suspects, and explain why you've only been going after lurkers, as well as why you yourself have been lurking.

I've been a bit busy, and didn't have time for a detailed read when I made that post. I noticed some people being very vocal, but nothing I could grab onto as particularly scummy or noteworthy; I also noticed some people (those I called out) being silent, so I challenged those instead.

As for reads/suspects, having now taken a more detailed look: Tiruin, Zombie, Penngo, Think are my main ones at the moment.

Tiruin: mostly for that vote on TolyK. It seemed forced and not well supported. Also his "strawman" tirade is just... bad. I doubt he'd be Zombie's scumbuddy, though. Questions: have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target? what's your current read on Deathsword?

Zombie: he has that bullshit case built around that "strawman" argument (of course "early massclaim" means D1/D2. penngo himself admitted it; claiming otherwise is just ludicrous), which seems to me just grasping at straws (heh) instead of working on solid leads. Questions: what do you make of Jim's vote on you? Have you reads on Penngo and Think?


Penngo: too silent, like a newbscum would be if fearful of giving himself away; answers have been utterly noncommittal and then nothing. (and of course an early massclaim is a stupid and scummy idea, don't get me started, but he doesn't seem to be really pushing for it). Questions: please state your current suspicions, with reasons; please ask two players two different questions each; do you think a scum would be more or less likely to avoid asking questions or casting a vote? why?

Think: too passive, lurking, really failing to ask people questions (except a handful for Dariush earlier). While he's generally lurky, this seems too much. Questions: ...just get your ass in here. If you wish, pick one question I ask each of the above and give your own answer.

Jim: Please describe the endochronic properties of resublimated thiotimoline and how they pertain to your current research. (heh)


Mod: votecount, please.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: mostly for that vote on TolyK. It seemed forced and not well supported. Also his "strawman" tirade is just... bad. I doubt he'd be Zombie's scumbuddy, though. Questions: have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target? what's your current read on Deathsword?

Forced? How? And not well supported? How?

Erm, who are you referring to in the bolded part?

[...]have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target?

> I'm awaiting TolyK's post.
> Deathsword is acting pretty scummy for the lack of vote usage in questioning, or even pressuring given the case. Though while I do have thoughts that he's a newbie and all, his reply here is giving me the impression that he's either not questioning people in a direct sense, or that he's confused. Sounds pretty jumpy afterwards by his statement on Shakerag's vote on Hapah. I see contradiction in his case [vote-unvote; reason only with Shakerag in the recent posts after his vote and scumhunting] so he falls third in line.

[penngo009]

Unvote

Book, I would be careful throwing around those words. As for your question, how am I supposed to know about scum that much, I am a total newb after all, right?

Zombie urist, how am I supposed to throw anything else at him if he doesn't post?

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

Urist Imiknorris, read the part that says observing, just fyi.

Tiruin, I simply wanted to see more evidence from Shake.

Toaster I wanted him to get more evidence.

I'll post a suspicion post later, as I have things to get done.

[Think0028]

Everyone who's saying I'm lurking: It's been a hell of a week.

Toaster: In retrospect, the way I put that claim is a particularly stupid one. My argument is that you jumped at an RVS question that, to me, seems no less or more inane than many other RVS questions, and what stuck out to me is that it was the one that had a vote attached to it. Why not Jim's question to IronyOwl, for example?

Dariush: TolyK didn't call you a lynching candidate for being scummy though, he called you out for being a lynching candidate because you're prone to overreactions. Where has he accused you of actually being scum?

Shakerag: How could Dariush acting like Dariush not get him lynched? There have been several games where Dariush has been lynched or ignored based on his typical reactions. Your example of 'how it's impossible to lynch Dariush for being angry' is a mere strawman argument. Why were you making a joke to Dariush like that anyways?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin: Wait, LT is failing? Can you PM me the details?

[Tiruin]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin: Wait, LT is failing? Can you PM me the details?

((My personal mistake, it was the connection where I was using the PC from. Heh, it's fine now.))

Unvote

Book, I would be careful throwing around those words. As for your question, how am I supposed to know about scum that much, I am a total newb after all, right?

Zombie urist, how am I supposed to throw anything else at him if he doesn't post?

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

Urist Imiknorris, read the part that says observing, just fyi.

Tiruin, I simply wanted to see more evidence from Shake.

Toaster I wanted him to get more evidence.

I'll post a suspicion post later, as I have things to get done.

=snip=

One thing caught my eye.

Book, I would be careful throwing around those words. As for your question, how am I supposed to know about scum that much, I am a total newb after all, right?

His question to you was:

Penngo: too silent, like a newbscum would be if fearful of giving himself away; answers have been utterly noncommittal and then nothing. (and of course an early massclaim is a stupid and scummy idea, don't get me started, but he doesn't seem to be really pushing for it). Questions: please state your current suspicions, with reasons; please ask two players two different questions each; do you think a scum would be more or less likely to avoid asking questions or casting a vote? why?

Please explain the bolded portion I highlighted in the quote above this one.

And on this one

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

How are you concluding this?

[Toaster]

Penngo:

Unvote

Book, I would be careful throwing around those words. As for your question, how am I supposed to know about scum that much, I am a total newb after all, right?

Zombie urist, how am I supposed to throw anything else at him if he doesn't post?

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

Urist Imiknorris, read the part that says observing, just fyi.

Tiruin, I simply wanted to see more evidence from Shake.

Toaster I wanted him to get more evidence.

This is a terrible, terrible post.  Where to begin?

First, your unvote.  You unvote Irony after voting him for... lurking, I guess.  Now you unvote him for... no reason.  He hasn't even posted, which only supports your only ostensible reason for voting him in the first place.  The only reason I can see for you unvoting is that you got called out on it and got scared.

Second, your comment to Book.  That last bit is a pretty serious case of WIFOM.

Third, you ignored my second question, Book's questions, and probably a few more besides.

Fourth, your comment to Irony.  All I can say is: What?  Either substantiate that or don't say it in the first place.

Finally, your scumhunting continues to not exist.


Book:  Fair enough, I suppose.


Think:  That question stuck out to me, so I called him out on it.  I was already after his post anyway because it was obvious he just knocked it out to have something down.

The question to Irony is about as relevant as the one to the one to UI- Irony would best answer by demonstration, so the question is essentially null.

[Jim Groovester]

I'd rather the answers be pointless by nature of the question rather than pointless by lack of knowledge of alignment.

And what's the difference between those two kinds of pointless?

One is pointless by virtue of the questions, the other is pointless by virtue of lack of knowledge of alignment.

Or maybe I asked a bullshit question, knowing full well that it was bullshit, to see Think0028's response.

Careful.  Apparently that sort of thing will get you lynched in this game, Jim.

Indirect complaint towards Hapah noted.

Speaking of Dariush: I think you're voting TolyK for stupid reasons.  His response says to me that you asked him a question to which he couldn't provide a stellar response, due to not knowing a number of players in the game.  And you're making scumtells out of thin air.  Convince me otherwise.

Note that I asked TolyK the question in question.

I think Shakerag's intention was to trick Penngo in saying yes, then bitch at him until he got lynched, since Penngo is a less experienced player.

So why didn't he?

Additionally, why not use the wealth of material freely given by penngo009 as well?

You're not countering my observation that you voted only in response to Tiruin's pressure, because you voting Shakerag for a standard follow up question isn't making a lot of sense.

To be fair, for all we know there could have been unpredictable bullshit happening during RVS.  Jim could have, to pull an example out of air, been targeted with a day ability that turned him into a fish.  In hindsight, it may have been ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek as well.
And, again, it was a joke.  A bit of banter, if you will.  A playful ribbing aimed at our dearly beloved Dariush.

Just... no. Thats way to bastardly for this kind of game and it makes it look like you're making shit up.

I'm not sure that you realize that you're pointing out the obvious.

Format trainwreck

Could you summarize this post since I have no intention of reading it?

Or, more generally, your case on zombie urist.

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

OH SHIT NO HE DIDNT

YOU GONNA LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THAT IRONYOWL

I'll post a suspicion post later, as I have things to get done.

So in a game where players are regularly given shit for not having suspects at this stage in the game, what makes you think you can get away with it?

[Dariush]

Dariush:

I don't believe in them. I'm an ascumbuddieist.

Oh, so you just don't believe in the ones you have?  Noted.

Aww, you're so cute. You went through the thread, found a bullshit RVS question and twisted my words to will a case against me in existence out of thin air. I'd hug you if you weren't such a steaming pile of shit.

Dariush:

Why are you ignoring obvious sarcasm?

Because I want to hear his response to my response.

And... ignoring obvious sarcasm is supposed to somehow make it more likely for him to make a serious answer?

Irrelevant.  If I want his response, I want his response, sarcasm or not.  His response with a truckload of sarcasm is sufficient for now.

You didn't answer my question. I asked why you did X, you said because Y. When I said X has no relation to Y, you agreed that you only wanted Y, thus discarding the question entirely. I repeat - why did you ignore obvious sarcasm in Jim's post?

Dariush: TolyK didn't call you a lynching candidate for being scummy though, he called you out for being a lynching candidate because you're prone to overreactions. Where has he accused you of actually being scum?

He didn't call me scum, that's true. Still, he accused me of being a lynching candidate (on a false premise, by the way) and then expressed surprise that I (along with other people he mentioned) responded to him. This is what brought my attention to him.

[penngo009]

Hey Toaster, nice job trying to pressure me, good job it didn't make much of a difference to how soon I post. I unvoted because I was going to make a suspicion post, not sit there on someone who still hasn't posted, and there is nothing else I can throw at them. It did look odd because I am not posting this before I hoped that I would get to this posting.

Tiruin, It was a joke/trollish response to his question, it was intentional.
I've concluded it because it looks like Irony has posted a lot less then I have

zombie urist

"Potentially effective" has no meaning. Lurking all game can be "potentially effective." Eating ice cream can be "potentially effective." I still don't quite agree on the RVS sentiment, but I don't want another theory discussion. Earlier refers to occuring slightly before in a timeframe. Even assuming a 4 day game, suggesting it to mean D1 and D2 is kinda extreme. Its entirely possible to even mean early in the day as opposed to late in the day.

Did you just say that lurking can be potentially effective.......... Just no. -___________-

You also said that RVS isn't scumhunting but helps determine alignment? Finding the players with the scum alignment is scumhunting, right?

[Tiruin]

Jim Groovester: Summary comes in the morning [~10 hours or so later] because have to finish this project.

Deathsword: Just saw this as a question-type.

Spoiler: Referring to what I asked on your reads (click to show/hide)

[=snip=

I am not, and wasn't, afraid of voting. I was simply not sure if I was correct or not. It is how I am. If I suspect I might be wrong, I will stop to think about it. My case on Shake you can see below, as for the others I haven't seen anything scummy from them yet, although I don't understand why you keep insisting that ZU is scum.

What is your take on this? Reasons, please?

penngo009

It did look odd because I am not posting this before I hoped that I would get to this posting.

What?

Hey Toaster, nice job trying to pressure me, good job it didn't make much of a difference to how soon I post. I unvoted because I was going to make a suspicion post, not sit there on someone who still hasn't posted, and there is nothing else I can throw at them. It did look odd because I am not posting this before I hoped that I would get to this posting.

Tiruin, It was a joke/trollish response to his question, it was intentional.
I've concluded it because it looks like Irony has posted a lot less then I have

zombie urist

"Potentially effective" has no meaning. Lurking all game can be "potentially effective." Eating ice cream can be "potentially effective." I still don't quite agree on the RVS sentiment, but I don't want another theory discussion. Earlier refers to occuring slightly before in a timeframe. Even assuming a 4 day game, suggesting it to mean D1 and D2 is kinda extreme. Its entirely possible to even mean early in the day as opposed to late in the day.

Did you just say that lurking can be potentially effective.......... Just no. -___________-

You also said that RVS isn't scumhunting but helps determine alignment? Finding the players with the scum alignment is scumhunting, right?

@Orange: Could you explain that in a more comprehensive post? All I got was you unvoted for the sake of unvoting -- the player did post, his...only other post [You voted IronyOwl] -- so did you unvote because of a pressure vote, because your vote was a pressure vote or because of something else?
@Green: So how do you do this by scumhunting? Only thing I can think about is through Inspection, which is a Night action. Please clarify?

And as a note to everyone. Me coloring statements have no effect in-game but to point out what I'm pointing out.

[Teneb]

Request Replacement


Sorry, but I've suddenly got a lot less time and a lot more stress due to real life issues and am in no shape to continue playing.

[zombie urist]

Tiruin:
Reads:
Think0028 - Leaning towards town
Deathsword - Dunno
IronyOwl - Lurk lurk lurk
pengo009 - Scummy
Bookthras - Null
Hapah - Townish
Urist Imiknorris - Null
Tiruin - Townish
Dariush - Probably town
TolyK - Dunno
Toaster - Scummy
Shakerag - Scummy
Jim Groovester - Null

Case on Shakerag:
1. Really shitty RVS questions, then justified them with equally bad reasons, and for the sake of completeness asked Dariush a totally bad question.
2. Strawman argument
3. Laughing his mistakes off as jokes.

I didn't really read the rest of your post because it hurts my eyes.

Zombie: he has that bullshit case built around that "strawman" argument (of course "early massclaim" means D1/D2. penngo himself admitted it; claiming otherwise is just ludicrous), which seems to me just grasping at straws (heh) instead of working on solid leads. Questions: what do you make of Jim's vote on you? Have you reads on Penngo and Think?

I don't agree with that sentiment. Also Penngo stated that he would prefer an earlier massclaim so town can use night actions to logically deduce who is scum. On D1, there are no night actions. Just because Penngo admitted it doesn't mean it isn't a strawman. Jim's vote looks like a either a pressure vote or a sneaky bandwagon vote. I'm leaning towards pressure at the moment. Reads above.

Did you just say that lurking can be potentially effective.......... Just no. -___________-
You also said that RVS isn't scumhunting but helps determine alignment? Finding the players with the scum alignment is scumhunting, right?

Did you read my previous post on the issue? I define scumhunting as actively trying to determine alignment. The main goal of RVS is to get discussion started.

I'm not sure that you realize that you're pointing out the obvious.

Yeah, but Shakerag needs to give a serious answer to the question.

[Hapah]

So people haven't ever been lynched for things that were taken out of context, things that weren't necessarily unusual? Is that what you're driving at? Because you know damn well that Dar would be an easy fucking lynch to people not familiar with him if he snapped at you.

Sure people have been lynched for things taken out of context.  Hell, I think Dariush is still butthurt about that happening to him back in RL4. But I still fail to see how Dariush acting like Dariush would get him lynched.  What reaction would I get, do you think, if I said to everyone here "Hey gaiz, Dariush just reacted to my RVS question in a totally angrey way!  He's gotta be teh scumz!"  I mean, seriously.  Also, Dariush is in practically every game, so who here isn't familiar with him?

Also, that last question of mine to Dariush was more of a joke, son. 

A joke? A joke? Nobody's laughing, are they? If you're going to make a joke, at least make it funny like Jim did.

Are you going to tell me your first two questions to Dar were jokes too? Hm? Because they all look like trivial bullshit from where I'm standing, and you claimed you had a reason for the first two. What makes this one different? Did you hope to get some deep goddamn insight from asking if QT is working? I think you didn't have a reason for either of the first two, and said the third just to keep up appearances.

The first two questions were reaction test questions.  Nothing came of them.  The third was inspired by post #138.  I suppose the only thing I was expecting out of it was a colorful insult thrown my way.  My disapointment is overwhelming.

It's your opinion that it was all trivial bullshit.  It's my opinion that it was worth throwing a question and seeing if he would be caught off guard.  You seem to be getting awfully worked up over this.

Bolded for emphasis above. What reaction were you expecting/hoping for, Shake? It obviously wasn't the cool deflection that he gave you. It wasn't Dar trying to figure out where you were going with the line of questioning, and it wasn't an angry response (see bolded top portion of the quote pyramid above). What were you looking for?