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Author Topic: Iran's Currency Implodes  (Read 11550 times)

Kilroy the Grand

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2012, 10:26:31 am »

Quote
Thirdly, the people suffering is the point. The idea of the sanctions is to convince them to rise up against the theocracy. It isn't like they don't suffer in other ways because it controls the nation. We're talking about a place where gay people get executed for existing and women can be stoned to death for "sorcery".

But stupid Iranians won't rebel, so of course they have to be starved. It's for their own good!

Call me naive, but deliberately making the country's economy go to shit to cause a civil war there doesn't strike me as more ethical than an actual invasion.

Edit: Iranians, of course. I'm still asleep.
"Don't rock the boat, man, I don't know why you can't just accept the theocracy."

Revolutions need a spark. As long as people don't feel that the situation is desperate enough most of them will not try to change it. Societal-wide procrastination, if you will. Political reform is not an option in a theocratic system like Iran's. Revolution, or at least the threat of it, is the most effective path to change.

So yes, us putting them in a bad place is for their own good. This way they'll have the motivation to reach out and actually take what they want and need. And at the end of the day it'll be the Iranians controlling their own future. Not the Iranian clergy and not the US government, but the people of Iran.
The last time we overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran it lead to a counter revolution that ended up a theocracy. It also didn't leave us in good terms, I guess they didn't like the taste of FREEDERM.

As for israel? I honestly don't care, maybe it's because I'm not jewish, or that I don't need them to rebuild the temple so jesus can comedown and kill and the heretics, or whatever. If they are attacked by iran we should help them, is they attack, fuck 'em.

Personally I have no idea why we're supporting a country like Israel when everyone had such a problem with rhodesia, I guess palestinians look whiter or something?
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kaijyuu

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2012, 10:32:00 am »

"Democratically elected leader," he says.



The Israel/Palestine conflict is all sorts of messed up. I find it hard to throw support toward either side, personally :X
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Reelya

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2012, 10:53:49 am »

@kaijyuu: Yes a fucking "Democratically elected leader" without the /sarcasm quotes.

He's talking about the 1953 CIA overthrow - look it up. they were a progressive constitutional democracy before America decided a dictator was better - which directly lead to the 1979 revolution of islamofascists we have today.

Read some history. Kilroy knows exactly what he's talking about and it's rude to sneer at people who know their shit.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 10:57:10 am by Reelya »
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kaijyuu

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2012, 10:56:42 am »

I know about that. I've had history class :P

My impression was that Kilroy was calling Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a democratically elected leader though, and was saying history would repeat if we deposed him.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Reelya

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2012, 10:59:27 am »

Kilroy specifically stated that the overthrow of democracy "lead to a counter revolution that ended up a theocracy.", he can't be more clear than that.

kaijyuu

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2012, 11:00:41 am »

Then it was a simple misunderstanding on my part. Apologies.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Reelya

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2012, 11:13:05 am »

I have zero tolerance on America and the Iran issue, because America were best buddies with much worse regimes, in recent history, like Mubarak's Egypt, and Uribe's Colombia. and America has zero loyalty to allies - pretty much they use horrendous tyrants to suppress populations and promote US corporate aims, then they turn on them overnight once they're no longer useful.

America is full of shit any time they claim human rights is their primary concern, the US government couldn't give a shit. they never have before.

how about the US army secretly shooting up Guatemalan men. women and CHILDREN with syphilis after world war II to see what happens? You can add that to torture rendition flights, protecting self-confessed terrorists who bombed Cuban civilian airliners, shooting down Iranian civilian airliners on regular flights over THEIR OWN airspace with Aegis cruisers. Not even scratching the surface here.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:20:22 am by Reelya »
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kaijyuu

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2012, 11:20:08 am »

Yeah I can understand being passionate about this particular issue :) The whole thing disgusts me too.


I rather wish we'd dismantle the CIA. And I don't think I need further reason for that than just the thing with Iran, and there's plenty of reason besides.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2012, 11:43:49 am »

The last time we overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran it lead to a counter revolution that ended up a theocracy. It also didn't leave us in good terms, I guess they didn't like the taste of FREEDERM.
We aren't overthrowing anyone this time. The Iranians will be, as the Libyans and Tunisians have done just recently. That's why this is a good thing. The Iranians will have the chance to self-determinate again, instead of being oppressed by a CIA-installed dictator or a religious-fanatic mob installed dictator.
America is full of shit any time they claim human rights is their primary concern, the US government couldn't give a shit. they never have before.
That's bullshit. There are lots of elements in the US government that don't care about human rights, but to say that the whole government doesn't care at all is demonstrably false.

The good comes with the bad, that is a consequence of having an elected government.
I rather wish we'd dismantle the CIA. And I don't think I need further reason for that than just the thing with Iran, and there's plenty of reason besides.
We can't really go without an intelligence agency. Dismantling the CIA is a step too far, but they need serious reforms, mandatory transparency, and direct oversight from other relevant areas of the government. We've already done a little of that since the Cold War ended and people started to be upset that the CIA was essentially a shadow army that did whatever it felt like, but there's a lot left to reform.

Personally, I also think the Director should be an elected official.

These measures can seem kind of harsh, but the nature of intelligence agencies requires them in the same way they are required for the military.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Reelya

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2012, 11:48:11 am »

one thing i can't get passed is the USA's (and sadly the EU and Britain's) 100% love of Colombia as a "beacon of democracy" in south America. That's because Colombia are the only thing close to a subservient Latin fascist state left. Not like those uppity brown people in every other latin state.

... and that's just SOME of what's going on.

And with all that, USA, EU, and the UK constantly refer to Colombia as the leading force for stability, democracy and journalistic freedom in South America. What a joke.

I can't take them seriously on any other country until they stop supporting murderous evil bastards. In this respect, Clinton was the best of the recent lot. He actually threatened sanctions on Colombia if they didn't clean up their act - And that was BEFORE all the stuff i put in the spoilers. Bush and Obama are both giving the fascists in Colombia a free pass whilst they conduct the biggest genocide there since the 1950's (the 1950's "La violenca" was a famous time when the Colombian government killed 20,000 people per year - Uribe's regime matched that - according to figures they BOAST about)

In 2007, colombia had a 26% increase in cocaine production and bolivia had a 5% increase - the Bush administration knew how to "remedy" both increases - a "free trade" deal for Colombia, but "sanctions" for Bolivia. Ironically, the new Bolivian government of Evo Morales had DOUBLED the amount of cocaine they seized that year, whilst there was no improvement from Colombia at all. Kinda makes you wonder about US priorities, almost like they're PUNISHING countries which start to interdict drugs. Similarly, the Chavez administration in Venezuela massively increased the amount of drugs they seize compared to previous governments, and are also constantly accused of not "playing ball" on enforcement, whilst in Afghanistan in 2001, the Taliban orchestrated a 90% drop in Opium production before Bush decided to invade. After America's conquest, Opium production returned to "normal".
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 12:50:09 pm by Reelya »
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Helgoland

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2012, 02:29:30 pm »

America is full of shit any time they claim human rights is their primary concern, the US government couldn't give a shit. they never have before.
That's bullshit. There are lots of elements in the US government that don't care about human rights, but to say that the whole government doesn't care at all is demonstrably false.

The good comes with the bad, that is a consequence of having an elected government.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”

Seems half of the politicians basically everywhere couldn't care that much if a mass of people died, so long as they weren't their own people.
"Russia has only two allies: Its army and its navy."

This is exactly the problem with nation-states, and the reason we need a super-national order. R2P is a step forward, but until there is a global constitution and sufficient institutions and military forces to back them up horrible things will continue to happen because of "national interests."
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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2012, 02:40:33 pm »

“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”

Seems half of the politicians basically everywhere couldn't care that much if a mass of people died, so long as they weren't their own people.
And the other half don't even care about their own people dying.

Kilroy the Grand

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2012, 02:49:10 pm »

America is full of shit any time they claim human rights is their primary concern, the US government couldn't give a shit. they never have before.
That's bullshit. There are lots of elements in the US government that don't care about human rights, but to say that the whole government doesn't care at all is demonstrably false.

The good comes with the bad, that is a consequence of having an elected government.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”

Seems half of the politicians basically everywhere couldn't care that much if a mass of people died, so long as they weren't their own people.
"Russia has only two allies: Its army and its navy."

This is exactly the problem with nation-states, and the reason we need a super-national order. R2P is a step forward, but until there is a global constitution and sufficient institutions and military forces to back them up horrible things will continue to happen because of "national interests."
...Right, because the EU is a wonderful success with no faults or failing whatsoever, and why every nation is clamoring to be included.
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Korbac

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2012, 02:55:38 pm »

Well, looks like something's finally happened.

I am very concerned about the whole Iran issue too. I don't want Iran to have nukes (I don't wanna be blown up just randomly one day!) but I kind of feel not letting them have nukes is a bit... well... oppressive? "Only the west can have nukes." "What about Russia, China and all that?" "Uhh... we couldn't stop them so we've got to live with it."

I understand you wouldn't want to give such destructive weapons to an unstable country (which I would say Iran is)... but where do you draw the line between "unstable" and "doesn't like America?" I don't think America would use nukes on other, less technologically developed countries... but I think everyone pointing out Iran as the bad guys when they admit in the same breath that America has a terrible human rights record, at home and abroad, is a little choosy.

Another thing which I agree with, but feel guilty doing so, is the overthrow of the "Theocracy". As someone said earlier, the first aim of an organization is to perpetuate itself, but America spreading around it's dirty democracy is oppressive in it's own right.



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Korbac

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Re: Iran's Currency Implodes
« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2012, 03:01:31 pm »

as my parents said: they can't really say 'you can't have nukes!' because the countries saying that have nukes.

"Guns are bad. If I see you trying to buy one, I might shoot you."
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