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[ShoesandHats]

Expect a post from me when I've not just gotten out of bed.

How's that going for you, ShoesandHats? Are you taking a break so you don't give yourself away?

No.

ShoesandhatsQuite a few people have told you that, that certain tactic is too complicated and too risky to perform, cause the chance of backfiring is very high. Even more so in a BM game. Why do keep clinging to that theory instead of moving on and creating a new case against me or someone else?

or aren't you confident enough that you can support your vote if you don't continue using that theory?

I don't know, I think the fact that you keep trying to turn me off the theory that marks you as scum is a little suspicious. Instead of trying to avoid being lynched, try scumhunting. I'm not saying that you're failing to do this, I'm just saying that a town should be less concerned about being lynched and be more worried about being competent.

Shoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up?  Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?

See the above and also what Nabic said about that exact question.

Now to do what I really need to learn to do better: Ask questions!

Mr. Zero
Why are you so concerned about others being suspicious of you, unless you're a cop, doctor or scum?

Nerjin
Why are you suddenly suspicious of Jim, unless I missed something?

Whoever xny's replacement ends up being
Who do you suspect so far? Have you read the entire thread?

[Nerjin]

@Shoesandhats: Because he created a tie and seems to have done so specifically to create a tie. We need a lynch. It just strikes me as odd.

[ShoesandHats]

@Shoesandhats: Because he created a tie and seems to have done so specifically to create a tie. We need a lynch. It just strikes me as odd.

And this is the second time that I'm going to have to say that someone has a good point.

Jim Groovester

Answer for the above, if you have not already done so in a question that I missed.

[Captain Ford]

Captain Ford:
Also, you vote ShoesandHats ... but with no further pressure/followup.  How certain are you he's scum?  Do you actually suspect Nerjin, or are you just going through the motions?

What do you mean I haven't followed up on ShoesandHats? I may not be the most active player in the thread, but I've been probing at him ever since. Are you saying I need to do a better job?

I admit that I have been investigating Nerjin out of some strange sense of responsibility to back up my random vote (though also because he wasn't garnering much attention). Your gentle nudging may have played a part in that.

There certainly are some days where I run out of time and don't get to post questions to everyone I'd like. I try to focus on adding to the thread rather than simply reiterating what someone else has said.

@Shoesandhats: Because he created a tie and seems to have done so specifically to create a tie. We need a lynch. It just strikes me as odd.

And this is the second time that I'm going to have to say that someone has a good point.

...is that a blatant attempt to direct attention away from yourself? It certainly looks like one.

[Jim Groovester]

Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that?

This is a weak defense. If your counter to an argument is to question the authority of the person delivering it, then you've committed an ad hominem fallacy. Regardless of whatever comes after here, your argument instantly loses credibility.

The strongest counter to an argument is the direct one. If someone accuses you of not scumhunting, explain exactly how you have been scumhunting.

@Jim

Could you provide some more specific examples of his dodging? You tying it up seems a little odd. Jim did you just do it to protect your scum-partner by any chance?

I changed my vote because Nabic answered my questions well enough that I no longer had reason to suspect him and I suspected ShoesandHats, so I did what anyone would do and changed my vote.

That it also caused a tie is not a significant issue. Count the hours between the deadline and when I change my vote. You will find it to be more than 24 hours, or, perhaps more accurately, not a fucking problem at all. That's plenty of time for everyone to look at the game and to encourage people to make sure a lynch happens. It would have been a problem if I had changed the vote hours before the deadline, before people could have a chance to take a look at it, but I did not do that.

As for ShoesandHat's dodging, you quoted it yourself:

And here it is.

ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?

Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.

This is the specific example in question. It's very lazy of him, and therefore suspicious.

Additionally, he's voting Mr.Zero for crappy reasons, which I do care about but less so than the lack of aggression since I don't expect earth-shatteringly brilliant arguments out of beginners.

I don't know, I think the fact that you keep trying to turn me off the theory that marks you as scum is a little suspicious. Instead of trying to avoid being lynched, try scumhunting. I'm not saying that you're failing to do this, I'm just saying that a town should be less concerned about being lynched and be more worried about being competent.

You think Mr.Zero defending himself is suspicious?

What a motherfucker for trying.

[Mr.Zero]

@Jim, could you give a slightly more detailed example of ad homimun fallacy? I've searched it on wiki but i'm still slightly confused about the exact meaning of it. Since there are multiple examples of this.

[zombie urist]

Current vote count:

Nerjin:
ShoesandHats [4]: Captain Ford, Mr.Zero, Nabic, Jim Groovester
Borno:
Captain Ford [1]: Shakerag
Mr.Zero [4]: Scottzar, Nerjin, ShoesandHats, Borno
Nabic:
scottzar:
Jim Groovester:
Shakerag:

Not voting:

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Day 1 will end Thursday, October 25 at ~11:00 P.M. PST.
Day ends in ~13 hours.

Scottzar has replaced in for xny

[Nabic]

Wow, that was a quick replacement!

What are your thoughts on [Mr.Zero's] latest statements?

Nerjin, what is your read on Captain Ford?

Shakerag, Do you have any reads you'd like to share? Who do you think is scum?

ShoesandHats, how have Mr.Zero's latest posts affected your impression of him? What pieces of evidence changed your opinion or kept it constant?

borno, I'd love to have you stop lurking and answer a few questions.

Mr.Zero the ad hominem fallacy is when you attack a person's character rather than their arguments. In Jim's quote, you said, "Who are you to decide that?" This is asking for credentials, but in mafia, credentials don't matter in finding scum, as roles are assigned randomly.
The fallacy simpler terms:
1. Nabic thinks your argument is vague and unhelpful.
2. Nabic is a new mafia player.
3. Therefore, your argument isn't vague and unhelpful.
This doesn't show how my argument is invalid, but is merely an attack on me.

Another example of the fallacy from the Ad hominem article on simple.wikipedia.org:
1. Person A thinks abortion should be illegal
2. Person A is uneducated and poor
3. Therefore abortion should not be illegal.

Jim suggested that you instead show how your post was clear and helpful to directly counter my argument instead.

scottzar, what are your reads on Mr.Zero and ShoesandHats?

[Mr.Zero]

Ah i see. PFP then.

[zombie urist]

Prods sent to Borno and Shakerag.

[Mr.Zero]

Extend, maybe a day or two? Since scottzar just joined in. Btw this is not the PFP post.

[Scottzar]

Extend Rereading thread, only know the last three pages or so atm.

Nabic:
ShoesandHats seems very classically scummy. I'll elaborate more in the morning, but generally he's trying to focus a certain person and get them lynched. In particular, his hunting for others is very lazy.

ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?

Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.

This represents what I mean well. He's made a very large and obvious mistake (not pressuring someone he FOS's), and reacted very calmly to being questioned about it, instead of immediately going to fix it. Also his reason for lynching Mr. Zero comes down to 'he's scum hunting wrong because he spends too much effort on one person', which is a classic scumtell, yet in pursuing this he doesn't even apply basic pressure to xny/me.


Mr. Zero: focusing very much on one person at a time, and going for the person who is trying to lynch him. Both of them are pressuring effectively, but not hunting while doing so.

Will add more in the morning.

[zombie urist]

2 votes to extend
0 votes to shorten

[Shakerag]

Look! A tie!

You're such a dick.

request replacement.

[Come back whenever; we'll still be here.  I'd personally like to see you in more games because I like your style.  Just do remember that these games run several weeks and need some TLC each day.]

Shakerag, Do you have any reads you'd like to share? Who do you think is scum?

Nerjin - Neutral
ShoesandHats - Scummy
Borno - Slightly scummy (where's your post?)
Captain Ford - Slightly scummy
Mr. Zero - Possibly town
Nabic - Neutral
Scottzar - Possibly town
Jim Groovester - It's Jim


Extend for the new guy, and general being busy.

[Scottzar]

unvote
Jim: you are playing very differently to how you did in, say, Wild West Mafia. You are much more... laconic. In particular, I would have expected you to pressure ShoesandHats when you changed your vote to him. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but I'd like to see why you personally are doing this.
ShoesandHats: Why do you keep saying 'oh yeah I need to do that as well' when called on something, such as not putting pressure on xny/me or this:

Now to do what I really need to learn to do better: Ask questions!

Why, in particular, no questions to either of the IC's? Shakerag hasn't been under significant pressure at all, as far as I know. You can't wait for him to slip himself, so why no actual questions?
Jim, also, has been acting if not suspiciously, rather strangely. I suppose meta-tells in a BM game aren't really that valid because of the playstyle change, but you can at least start to ask him about it.

Mr.Zero

Shoesandhats oh my scummy friend, where are thee? Why have you hidden yourself from our sight?Have you given up?  Or are you creating that piece of evidence which will blow us out of our minds and in explicitly proves that i'm scum?

What is the point of this question? To annoy ShoesandHats? To poke him? Why does it need to be so sarcastic to get him to post? Why not put down real pressure and force him to answer that or get lynched?

Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?

Ohoho, i only called you out on your semi-lurk that's all. Why are you getting so ehm... mad? about it?, do you have something to fear?

Your question was vague and unhelpful to town. In mafia, asked questions necessitate answers. Spamming others with questions wastes everyone's time reading them.

Vague and unhelpful? Who are you to decide that? I just poked you for your semi-lurk and you jumped, then i asked that question. You totally avoided that question, now it does seem like you have something to hide. If you wouldn't you'd answered the question and produced that statement with it.

Please explain the lack of answer, even though it should be a easy question.

The tone of this is very argumentative and generally unhelpful. If you want someone to answer your/a question, why don't you quote that question?

Why do you call Nabic out on not being able to decide the worth of a question? How does this help your argument? Jim talked to you about it, but you never explained your reasoning.

What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin

So it gives me the following impression of them: "Job's done, we found scum. Let's lynch him and worry about the other one on day 2." While they aren't even trying to find or search for any possible scumtells from scumbag #2. Which would make it even easier for town to spot/find scum on day 2.

What's wrong with this? If they think you've cracked as mafia, shouldn't they be focusing on getting a lynch for that you?

Yes and no. They should get the lynch on me if they believe i'm scum, but @Nabic : shouldn't they scum hunt further and keep me on their scum leash?

This part is fairly redeeming, in that it seems true. However, Mr.Zero: given that you've been called on it, shouldn't you stop focusing on who is pressuring you, and instead deal with it while scumhunting. ShoesandHats is the only one you seem to be putting much pressure on.


@Everyone other than Nabic and ShoesandHats: Why haven't you questioned me? Jim can say he hasn't gotten a post in after the replacement, but Mr.Zero and Shakerag, why haven't I gotten any pressure from you?

@Borno: you've been lurking/not posting for a while. What is the justification? How do you think your lurking will have changed people's opinion of you? Do you think not posting is worse for a scum or a townie in regards to their chance to win?

ShoesandHats, re. the question: My order of scum would probably be:
ShoesandHats
Mr.Zero
Borno
Shakerag
Captain Ford
Jim
Nabic
Nerjin