Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Starver]

The difference is getting used to tiles is much more easier.

fix'd[/quote]Doesn't look fixed to me.  Only for grammar.

Also, tiles can show you more (animals, especially) so you don't have to pause and look at it when you see something.

That's just when you're not sure what a 'k' means, etc.  And characters don't give you the problem of not knowing the difference between (frexample) a camel and a llama, which some graphical tilesets fail at, but the ANSI-like never does.  (As for eyestrain, I would have thought it the reverse...  Ho hum, fair enough.)

You can find ASCII more suited to you though. It's your choice.

Agreed, in that it's a choice.  Also that "If you don't like it, don't force yourself to play it like that. Play it however you like."

(To cheekily paraphrase a certain other philisophical viewpoint, the people who like a particular tileset above all others (and there are so many choices) aren't that much different from those who don't like tilesets at all.  It's just that the latter 'believe in' one less tileset. But, seriously, at least knowing the default ANSI-like tileset (yes, it's a tileset, still, unlike atheism which isn't so necessarily a belief, to merely continue the analogy and not to want to provoke a derail) gives a 'common tongue'.  Getting used to an artistic tileset to the exclusion of the default one does disconnect one from the Linga Franca of the forums.  At least bookmark the Wiki pages that indicate what creatures are what, for when you're staring at someone else's ANSI/Codepage-blah tileset screenshots.  Might be a suggestion, for those that necessarily post arty screenshots[3], that there's a link to a similar look-up sheet so those with other tilesets (including the default) can get a handle on what they're seeing?)

Also, I always use ASCII, and I never get confused. Except with goblin and geese, can't tell you how confused I get with those.

Apart from one fort[1], I don't think I've ever had my geese wandering (for any significant time, after the first few days after embark) anywhere that heretofore unseen goblins might be.  And you get warnings that there's an ambush or siege.  And there's only two colours of goblins that can possibly be geese[2], and even the confusable ones are usually accompanied by a commander of a different (and obviously non-goose) colour, or are the commander, accompanying a whole lot of obviously non-geese 'g's.  (Colour-blindness issues excepted, of course.)

Maybe it helps that I'm a control-freak, micromanaging everything and controlling the ground with walls and defences aplenty enclosing my aboveground space (and the geese are in a subterranean pasture, also, when they aren't in their guard-pastures), but I still think the geese/goblin confusion is overrated.  Obviously, from the aforementioned anecdotal evidence, this is obviously not an accurate summation for everyone.  Seems like playing styles might play a part in the attribution of the ease or difficulty of identification, and viva la difference, eh?


[1] I set goslings out on 1x1 pastures all around the perimeter, to reveal hidden newcomers onto the field of play.  Worked well, except that they got scared off their positions by the hostiles, and dwarves streamed out to re-pasture them, right on an intercept course with the hostiles themselves.    Since then, I've used "belly-gunner bunkers" to similar effect, which keeps them relatively safe.  They obviously still scared, but I also locked them in.

[2] Green 'g's aren't marksgeese, I'll tell you that for nowt.

[3] Because that's what they're using, and switching them on and off each time they need a screenshot would obviously be impractical.

[Leatra]

Well, I think tilesets also make sure newbies aren't scared off that easily

Also, tiles can show you more (animals, especially) so you don't have to pause and look at it when you see something.

That's just when you're not sure what a 'k' means, etc.  And characters don't give you the problem of not knowing the difference between (frexample) a camel and a llama, which some graphical tilesets fail at, but the ANSI-like never does.  (As for eyestrain, I would have thought it the reverse...  Ho hum, fair enough.)

Yeah, even with tilesets some animals are still difficult to understand. Tilesets and ASCII have both cons and pros. Hell, I may be a "tileset supporter" now but I started playing DF with ASCII first and when I first tried tilesets I was like "What?! I was just getting the hang of ASCII. Now I have to learn what all these things mean?" But I decided to keep playing with tilesets and I got used to it pretty fast.

By the way, sorry about that grammatical mistake. I'm trying to improve my English.

[Starver]

By the way, sorry about that grammatical mistake. I'm trying to improve my English.

Offtopic: "Much more easy" would have been an option, as well as the given "Much easier".  ('more' ≡ '-ier', or perhaps it's ≈... either equivalent to or roughly equal to, anyway.)  To be honest, it's an understandable emphasis in the vernacular, and I wouldn't have considered it needing correcting in basic chatter such as wot we 'ave 'ere, guvnor.

I'd actually originally thought that the "fix'd" was a jokey note about a mental switching you know, like "I believe Foo Bar is better than Bar! Foo!" type of thing, or the insertion/removal of a "not", somewhere, so initially replied with the idea of saying "Whoops, you failed to fix it!" or something similar.  Then I realised the replying post was of the same mind as you, and then I "went off on one" to put my own POV forward.  Unnecessarily, but done now.

If I'd thought it was actually a grammatical fix, I might instead (if feeling in a silly mood) have gone with changing

fix'd

...to

fixed

fixed!

[/Offtopic]


As for scaring newbies off, I see your point.  But how many newbies are scared off by the background mechanics learning curve?  Without going down the elitist route of argument, I reckon that people who understand the ANSI (or, indeed, the simple graphics, as compared with fully immersive 1st/3rd perspective 24-bit colour vector-driven environments you find in more mainstream games) are probably more proof against rage-quitting because of the problems doing 'simple' things that seem to cause people problems at first.  If you see a technical-looking interface, does that prepare you?

If it doesn't prepare you, would a graphical one have done?  Unanswered questions, I'm afraid, as people easily asked (on these forums) have probably at least partially mastered the program, even if they're now a non-player who is now "watching with interest, waiting for version 1.0.0".

I can only speak as I find, and know that I'm not a "normal" player, so probably have the wrong angle on this...  Doubtless few of us Bay12ers are 'normal', but then are we missing a trick in attracting those other types of gamers?  Even the kinds that fawn excessively over Minecraft, say, but wouldn't consider DF as it currently (or even foreseeably) stands...

[kaijyuu]

Oh dear, not another ascii vs tilesets debate


Guys guys guys. It's a simple matter of preference. I like ascii. Some people like tilesets. There isn't really anything objectively superior about either one, baring a few really minor things. Yes, ascii is slightly more informative. Yes, tilesets visualize better and can be easier on the eyes. Not deal breakers either way.

[Scow2]

The problem is when people post Tileset images you're not familiar with, when everyone should understand the default ANSI, even if they don't play in it.

[Leatra]

The problem is when people post Tileset images you're not familiar with, when everyone should understand the default ANSI, even if they don't play in it.

That's not 'the' problem. That's your problem. You can't expect people to magically know what you know. You don't know tilesets, some people know tilesets. You know default characters, some people don't know default characters. I have no idea why people who use tilesets are percieved as people talking English in France. It's just a simple matter of preference. If you want to fix this problem, force everyone to get used to ASCII by taking over the game and banning all the tilesets.

By the way, sorry about that grammatical mistake. I'm trying to improve my English.

Offtopic: "Much more easy" would have been an option, as well as the given "Much easier".  ('more' ≡ '-ier', or perhaps it's ≈... either equivalent to or roughly equal to, anyway.)  To be honest, it's an understandable emphasis in the vernacular, and I wouldn't have considered it needing correcting in basic chatter such as wot we 'ave 'ere, guvnor.

Got it. Thanks!

About scaring newbies off, game itself is complex already. Seeing familiar things will make things less scary. At least that's the way how it was for me. I stopped playing DF and started again when I heard of tilesets.

[LoSboccacc]

the wiki is written in ansii, so if you use a tileset that information is hard to map.

what bothers me of tileset is that icons make it difficult to quickly recognize stuff against the background, like trees or dark critters in caves.

and O

[GoombaGeek]

No, this is how ASCII vs. graphics works.

ASCII:
- Game default. All sets considered "ASCII" will be recognizable to everyone who knows ASCII.
- Graphics users are confused.

Graphics:
- Many different tilesets, no standard.
- Both ASCII users AND other-tileset users will be confused if the tileset uses different standards than a "normal" graphics set (of which there is none, as it's all made up of many competing standards).
- One symbol can represent many things, and this is what makes these sets confusing. One set may make % a cheese-looking "meal". Another may make it an inverted barrel to make screw pumps look right (usually the division sign is a barrel). Unrevealed ground tiles will now be full of little cheese blocks or inverted barrels.

ASCII is a standard. Graphics are not. This is why tutorials and most games are expected to use ASCII.

[Leatra]

Ugh...

There is no ASCII vs. graphics. Talking about ASCII vs graphics is as stupid as talking about red apples vs. green apples. There is a tutorial that uses Mayday's tileset too and most games. I won't even argue (though there is nothing to argue about) about this topic to someone who has this way of thinking.

Nobody can make my change my preferences. I can play however I want to. I don't care if tilesets are proven as the inferior way of playing DF. This argument will accomplish nothing because people are free to play however they like. Nobody is going to change the way they play this game just because you think it's confusing. Go learn a tileset or take over the game and ban the tilesets.

[therahedwig]

I don't get the acii vs graphics idea either?

I mean, really, ascii is just another graphics tileset for me. It doesn't matter whatever variation I use...

That said, if you'd like nice visuals of Dwarf Fortress, Stonesense is quite pretty now, and gives you a very decent idea of what everything looks like. (Especially nice with elevation, dwarf designs, and if you activate them, the grasses and streaming water).

[GoombaGeek]

I won't even argue (though there is nothing to argue about) about this topic to someone who has this way of thinking.

Very nice way of wrapping up the topic.

I'd say more, but clearly I can't explain anything to someone like you.

[Loud Whispers]

Here is an advice: if you get used to ASCII, you'll find tilesets confusing and if you get used to tilesets, you'll find ASCII confusing. The difference is getting used to tiles is much more easier.

Depending on person to person, I can both disagree and agree. Personally, disagree.

[Scow2]

The problem is when people post Tileset images you're not familiar with, when everyone should understand the default ANSI, even if they don't play in it.

That's not 'the' problem. That's your problem. You can't expect people to magically know what you know. You don't know tilesets, some people know tilesets. You know default characters, some people don't know default characters. I have no idea why people who use tilesets are percieved as people talking English in France. It's just a simple matter of preference. If you want to fix this problem, force everyone to get used to ASCII by taking over the game and banning all the tilesets.

Ugh...

There is no ASCII vs. graphics. Talking about ASCII vs graphics is as stupid as talking about red apples vs. green apples. There is a tutorial that uses Mayday's tileset too and most games. I won't even argue (though there is nothing to argue about) about this topic to someone who has this way of thinking.

Nobody can make my change my preferences. I can play however I want to. I don't care if tilesets are proven as the inferior way of playing DF. This argument will accomplish nothing because people are free to play however they like. Nobody is going to change the way they play this game just because you think it's confusing. Go learn a tileset or take over the game and ban the tilesets.

Actually, using tilesets is like trying to use a non-vehicular language in international discussion. Using your own language works when you're talking with others that understand it... Likewise, you can play with whatever tileset you're most comfortable with.

However, not everyone plays Dwarf Fortress alone. The problem comes in when someone using a tileset (Of which there is no standard) tries to contribute to !!SCIENCE!!, or other community projects like Succession Forts. Which is like trying to speak to the Scientific Community using the American Imperial measurement system instead of Metric/SI. Or use a local language in an international political scene - Sure, you could make others understand you, but you need an interpreter. ASCII is Dwarf Fortress' default tileset, and therefore expected to be vehicular for !!Science!! and other community projects.

[Putnam]

I don't care if tilesets are proven as the inferior way of playing DF.

Nobody said that. What they said is that tilesets are like romances languages (pretty, but if you put an Italian and a Spaniard in a room together they couldn't exactly have deep conversation) while ASCII is English (a lingua franca, recognized internationally and known more widely than any other language, but confusing as hell to those who don't know it).

[Anathema]

As a diehard fan of one particular tileset who has never used any other (Mayday, in my case), the "standard" or "lingua franca" argument has always seemed bizarre to me. I can look at Phoebus or Ironhand screenshots and easily recognize ~90% of the graphics, despite never having played either; any tileset makes more sense to me than ASCII, which I never really got the hang of. A Mayday tree is a Phoebus tree is an Ironhand tree, any version is easily recognizable as a tree to me, moreso than a green spade.

Speaking only for myself, there doesn't need to be a 'standard,' the whole point of a tileset is to convert arbitrary symbols into recognizable pictures - if those pictures aren't recognizable to users of other tilesets, then that particular tileset has failed imo. When I look at an ASCII screenshot, I often find myself pausing to think: wait, is that a goblin or a goose? When I look at a graphical tileset, even one I've never seen before, I never find myself thinking: is that a green dude with a spear or an avian livestock?

I do sympathize with people used to ASCII who have never liked any tileset; I'm sure looking at tileset screenshots for you is no easier than looking at ASCII screenshots for me. I just get a bit irritated when an ASCII lover, who seems to see tilesets as widely varied and equally incomprehensible, assumes that unfamiliar tilesets also look that way to lovers of a particular tileset. Not true, for me anyway.

Oh, and random side note: it really makes no difference what the wiki is written in. You can't search the wiki for "&" and wind up at the appropriate entry (believe me, I tried, for a long time I had no clue what people were referring to with "&" ), any more than you can search the wiki for the picture of that creature your tileset shows you. Either way, ASCII or tileset, you need to 'k' unfamiliar critters and look up the name. Tilesets may arguably you a better chance of guessing offhand whether a new critter is harmless livestock or deadly invader, but really, this is Dwarf Fortress.. I think we're all used to using the cumbersome interface to get information, rather than trying to deduce it from graphics alone.