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Author Topic: Prison Architect - Version 2.0 Release | It's over! *weeping*  (Read 246883 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #810 on: December 28, 2013, 12:13:33 pm »

There is no overseeing body to actually check on how you're operating your prison, so who's to say what security level a prisoner deserves to be?
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Yolan

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #811 on: December 28, 2013, 12:41:07 pm »

So yes, you could get a bunch of docile min-sec guys, grade them high-sec, and get the money benefit. I suppose this is something that a 1.0 version of the game would need to address.

Given how easy prisoners are to control at present, even with max sec only prisoners I tend to get bored.
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Descan

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #812 on: December 28, 2013, 12:49:05 pm »

Should be de-coupled so that each prisoner has a grade from the start of "Min/med/max security" and any change you make doesn't modify how much money you get, only that starting grade.
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Graknorke

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #813 on: December 28, 2013, 01:06:07 pm »

Prisoners already have varied temperaments though. It's actually a smooth gradient rather than being one of three possibilities. The Min/Nor/Max sec stuff is just for grouping, as far as I can tell.
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Descan

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #814 on: December 28, 2013, 01:40:03 pm »

What? What makes you think I was talking about temperments?

I just mean sentencing-level for how much money you get for the prisoner which doesn't change no matter how you arrange security, and then an in-house security level so that prisoners who aren't assholes can be grouped together, no matter what their sentencing-level is.
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PanH

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #815 on: December 29, 2013, 01:16:52 pm »

Prisoners already have varied temperaments though. It's actually a smooth gradient rather than being one of three possibilities. The Min/Nor/Max sec stuff is just for grouping, as far as I can tell.
Dunno, I find there's quite a big difference if I'm filling my prison with max as opposed as med. They're really more violent, and I have to put much more guards.
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Graknorke

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #816 on: December 29, 2013, 01:27:54 pm »

Prisoners already have varied temperaments though. It's actually a smooth gradient rather than being one of three possibilities. The Min/Nor/Max sec stuff is just for grouping, as far as I can tell.
Dunno, I find there's quite a big difference if I'm filling my prison with max as opposed as med. They're really more violent, and I have to put much more guards.
Yes, that would be the case, but the tolerances of the prisoners is more varied that just being either minimum, medium, or maximum security.
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BigD145

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #817 on: January 24, 2014, 05:48:59 pm »

There's an island prison start that's fun. It's on the workshop. "Prison Island (Mini)"

It has a single road/bridge from the main road and a goodly amount of building space. If you use the bridge as your only entry you don't even need to build walls around the compound. Water is your wall. Yes, prisoners can tunnel under the water.
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Tobel

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #818 on: January 25, 2014, 09:35:31 am »

The developers have a fairly serious discussion about a critique of their game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=netYNUAq_ZQ

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BigD145

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #819 on: January 25, 2014, 10:52:18 am »

It's not set in bloody fucking America!
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #820 on: January 25, 2014, 02:50:15 pm »

Kotaku is pretty godawful if that's their excuse for gaming journalism. Can't tell if the writer was being silly on purpose or was really believing their own BS. Let's see how that person feels after a session of DF.


'Dwarf fortress is supporting inequality and downplaying depression, I say you take on these issues with maturity for me!!'

Actually, maybe they should make it hyper realistic to the point of being monotonous and dull to even start up. Remember how fun Prison Tycoon is??
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:52:25 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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BigD145

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #821 on: January 25, 2014, 03:03:33 pm »

The writer made an assumption and ran with it, all the while asking "why didn't you make this obvious alpha game into a mirror image of life in a specific country?"
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Vattic

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #822 on: January 25, 2014, 03:45:44 pm »

Kotaku is pretty godawful if that's their excuse for gaming journalism. Can't tell if the writer was being silly on purpose or was really believing their own BS.
I think this is unfair given how a lot of his criticisms are considered valid by the developers and will disappear as new features are included.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #823 on: January 25, 2014, 03:54:45 pm »

Yeah, because they'll continue development. Not because of a ridiculous article.
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nenjin

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Re: Prison HYPHEN Architect (v. a15) - Now with more PUPPIES!
« Reply #824 on: January 25, 2014, 04:31:13 pm »

I'm not really a fan of Kotaku either. They really don't have a claim to being a moral authority. It's practically 'the internet' of games journalism, in that it includes all types of content (from the highbrow to the downright stupid, trivial, sexist and not even games.)

I get the guy's gripe and yeah, in some ways you feel a little weird playing PA if you have any sort of liberal leanings. But it's not a white washing, or a thoughtless cheerleader for the Prison Industry. It's....

A goddamn simulation! And a good one, at that! The statement it makes is the statement the player intends to make. A good simulation covers as many angles and extremes as possible, and when the dots are all connected between various simulation mechanics, you arrive at the outlook the player wanted to express. That covers everything from the newbie who is hopelessly floundering amongst the game mechanics, and is basically the model of inefficiency, to the experts who understand the mechanics and manipulate them to arrive at increasingly different results. That's both the guy who runs a gulag hellhole as a political statement OR like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass....to the guy who runs a Utopia where every prisoner has an apartment (one of the maps already shown on Steam) because he believes prisons should help people OR because he wants a safe testing ground to observe and experiment on these people.

A good simulation makes room for all these things. If the people making the simulation are decent people, then it's reasonable to assume they prefer good outcomes just as much as you do. (And perhaps the occasional desire to indulge in a nihilistic simulation.) And PA is already doing that pretty well.

To take DF as an example, I actually get a lot of joy from watching my personally named dwarves succeed, get better and be happy. I savescum for this reason, because that's what the game is primarily about to me. I play PA much the same way by default, it just lacks some elements to make you more attached to all occupants of the prison, staff and inmates.

I think the article writer may not really get simulations the same way, or want them to work in less interesting ways. I haven't looked through his games but what they said about Unmanned sounds like a guy who designs a game to make a specific political statement or strike a specific tone. And while I consider myself left-leaning, the kind of game it sounds like he wants is a terrible one, one that points out all the worst of prisons in America so it can be an incessant drum beat of hunger strikes, protests against execution, rape, corrupt staff taking advantage of inmates and outright murder. That's pigeonholing a game to serve a political goal and it's what wrecks simulations. LCS is a little like that, but in his own way, Toady built a scale between violent and non-violent liberal action. To fully realize the simulation would have been to do the CCS in reality.

Anyways, they seem to be taking it alright. And in the process of talking about what the game doesn't yet do, we're getting a look at some longer term goals that I didn't really know about. Dunno if they've talked about them before.

-Linked offenses, rather than seemingly random ones.
-Better, more nuanced prisoner personalities.
-Drug addiction, status effects for them and motivating prisoners to steal for drugs.
-Longer term psychological effects on prisoners from their experiences.
-Rehabilitation and Drug Treatment.
-Decision-based Parole hearings.
-Prison life affecting recidivism rates.

I mean, when it's all said and done, that's a pretty bloody brilliant simulation. Such openness. So connected. And this is why I love Introversion. They get it. Chris says "[The Drug Simulation] isn't in the game because we haven't given the players any tools to deal with it. It's a pointless simulation."

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Remember how fun Prison Tycoon is??

Oh man. Do I. 3 hours of work for literally no pay off. Just watching guys walk in a line and guards occasionally run over to clean up.

I guess I shouldn't really be surprised by this writer's reaction. Other forums I've mentioned PA, I get a distinctly different reaction than what we see around here. Some people are thoroughly creeped out by the idea of playing a prison simulation, because their minds automatically go to the kinds of possibilities that the writer seems to want: i.e. the worst examples the US Prison Industry has to offer. (Yes, that's a DF Forums brag on the sly.) It's kind of a sign of the times I guess that people with good intentions (social justice) are in this industry but they lack the ability to hold any kind of cognitive dissonance when it relates to gameplay. To me, DF wouldn't be as sweet if my dwarves weren't so detailed and could face such horrible ends, possibly by my hand. Likewise, PA wouldn't be as interesting if I couldn't both make my prisoners better people or grind them down into subhumans. The former is currently a bit lacking but there's little doubt it's coming.

At least the guy's article has gotten them to talk more openly about their later development plans and made some good calls for better representation of some mechanics.

Lol, toward the end, I dunno. My opinion of this writer has changed slightly. He sounds like a A#1 candidate for LCS. His bit about affecting the laws in the area your prison exists is along LCS's line of thinking. Personally, I'd be all for that, since Chris and Mark already view it as a scale.

Mark "We need to change the tag line from Prison Architect: Build And Manage A Maximum Security Prison, to Prison Architect: ITS NOT IN THE FUCKING UNITED STATES." God I hope they do that for the next alpha update video.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 04:44:20 pm by nenjin »
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