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[Truean]

@ GlyphGryph:

I'm not entirely sure if I know how to answer your questions but I'll try.

I'm also kinda liking the sound of a "scene based" system, but I have no idea the specifics of it. maybe that'd work better. Sounds a lot better than round by round combat, because I don't wanna take a month on things or several. For this reason I'd probably keep the player pool very small. Perhaps 2 or maybe even 3 at most to start. Maybe even just one in the very beginning. I have no idea.

I think the gist of your post is that everything should center around player experience and GM expectations? I'm pretty much ok with that, long as it doesn't go nuts. As for exactly what type of game I want, that's partially why this exists, to figure that one out. The general idea of what I was thinking is that you make some virtual space that's all your own, or as close to it as it can be. I'm looking for a sense of player ownership and hopefully the players would like the idea of having some little space that's "theirs." I do not want 1x1 bedrooms or anything (though at first basic sleeping stuff might be required, etc). The "mood" I guess of the game would be fun but serious (not fun/comedy/stupid etc).

I'd like each player to end up having their own customizable space akin to a home, perhaps a workshop, meaningful public spaces and people they can interact with, and things to do that are meaningful while interacting with the larger world. They may in time gain possessions, positions and power. They may not even strictly have to stay in the fort all the time. (I mean you know, don't go on globe trotting mission every day or something but yeah.... There isn't necessarily an invisible wall).

The idea being they'd create this and design it to look and feel cool. Hopefully it wouldn't just be "hallways and rooms!!!." In other words, not the usual dwarf fort that just gets stuck in the ground and left to do whatever.... I imagine dwarves making hallways, sure, but also plazas, vaulted halls, etc. That way it'll look cool and hopefully people will come back. They could also create their own industry/business/guild that does damn near anything. It could be a group of hunters dealing in meat and fur or.... I dunno.... a rock carving thing. Pick your poison really. The only limit is make sure it's something you'd actually wanna do repeatedly.  I'm somewhat worried somebody would be like  "I'm a rock carver," which would be fine, except their posts are gonna consist of "I carve rock things," which is ok, but imagine 40 or those posts. Would that be fun for them? I'm afraid it'd get old and I'd lose a player/they'd be pissed.

Also maybe you don't have to start your own guild/industry etc. Maybe there's already one or more existing guilds for that. They could actually help you.... Or, if you decided to start your own competing guild, maybe they wouldn't like you so much. If whatever the heck character you end up making is.... an armorer.... Then I can't imagine there aren't dwarven groups devoted to armor making. Maybe you pay them dues and they give you discounts? Maybe they issue challenges to you. Maybe they funnel you business to fill large orders even when the place you're in doesn't need craptons of a specific type of armor made? Who knows. Maybe they send you an instructor who teaches you how to make these awesome gauntlets or something. Maybe you get promoted in the guild and they send you an apprentice or four. Maybe you take over the whole guild or a part of it. I dunno. That seems to go into something the player would care about/ directly effect their gameplay. Might need some forethought though.

The other thing I sorta touched on earlier is what are the players gonna do that's fun and that's limited by what type of character they have and what skils. If you only do armor smithing, then I'm just worried that we're looking at "I make a peice of armor" x 100.... I'm worried that might not be fun for people/repetitive.  I wanna give 'em something more, and I'm not entirely sure how to do that. One way might be to have players have a suite of skills related to one another. Maybe there's something akin to a flexible "class" (I have no idea what to call it, but that's close enough?) that has related skills. They don't just teach you about armor, but they also have you make weapons as well and smelt, and generally blacksmith? Who knows. Maybe you know how to make a wide variety of things that fort really needs out of metal. Maybe there's an "outdoorsy" class that deals with hunting/herbalism/skinning/some butchering and slight cooking? Maybe even some wood working in there, perhaps limited to say..... making arrows/bolts?  See how that's one idea where your skillset is based around things that give you options to do in your environment.

Maybe you have several environments....

Also I'd hope there would be leisure activities for your character too.

You can also build a home or have somebody build it for you if you'd like to specialize in fighting, or a craft or who knows.

Maybe you have a couple skills in fighting and a craft?

The overall hope, however we get there is that players feel they have some reason to give a damn about the make believe world and that might even extend beyond the fort. You could visit and have reasons to care about things in other locations. You could have multiple homes/locations. Own a bar for all I care. End up being a dwarven tycoon or a general. End up being a pauper. It all depends upon what you do.

Keep in mind, there are going to have to be some NPCs involved but yeah.
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@ Maximum Zero.

That sounds pretty reasonable overall.

Again, I get that you might not wanna get bogged down in the details, but also do you really wanna just type "I make a steel sword" 23 times? Not that you necessarily would or that it would all be the same, but am I kinda being clear enough?

I just don't want to have you have your whole experience in the game for a week be "I make a steel suit of armor." And then, "I make a steel spear." Then, "I make a Steel shield." After that. "I make a metal bit for the horses, preferably out of copper" Finally, "I get drunk at the ale hall (x4). I mean If that's how you'd wanna play, then I certainly wouldn't necessarily stop you, but I would like to give you more options.

I mean I'm simply afraid of it becoming repetitive and a chore instead of the fun it could be to have your own blacksmith's shop or something (whatever you end up doing).

On a related subject how long of a time do posts cover? I'm not going for the 6 second round in D&D (because that's too short) but yeah. I mean especially if I have 2 or more players, I want to figure out how to deal with the situation where the first player lists like 5 actions and the second one lists one short and simple one. What do you do with that?

I'm ok with making a lot of it up on the fly and perhaps it'd be better that way to a point, as long as it was consistent. I do want players to think there's a larger world acting on itself and them that they can be a part of.

There are some issues that should probably be ironed out beforehand though, like... what does a post look like even? What can a player do. Where? Who cares if the players do somethings and how /why do they care. This will generate content. (might be simplier than I just made it sound)

Build something that isn't solely about short distances to keep FPS up, while keeping in mind that somebody's got to describe it still . Less limits, perhaps. Build ships if you wanna/can. Build railways (well... not trains exactly) . Sponsor caravans whatever.

Does that make any sense or ...?

I hope that helped some. Did it?

[GlyphGryph]

I'll have more to say later, but I just want to say that this feels a LOT more like your talking about your game, and gave me a much better feeling for what you're planning. That's a good thing.

And as far as mood - happy/serious/funny is just part of it. D&D, for example, is a system built with 2 moods in mind: Adventure and Progression (accumulation of crazy amounts of power). You can use the system for other things, but it just plain doesn't work as well.

Anyways, more later...

[Truean]

Ugh, don't remind me; I should've never said anything about that. If I could get into a decent corporate finance job I'd very probably chose number crunching over that. Mmmm crunching crunchy numbers.... Yes, that sounds delightfully numeric.

I do think that having a world outside of what you see might be valuable if it has some effect on you in a gmae[shrugs]. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong.

[MaximumZero]

As far as my reply, I'd be happy with assigning my character menial things to do between tasks at the beginning of the game via a profession or something, and taking one turn per [time frame] to do something important. It's all about the level of abstraction that you want to run. As a player, I either follow it, or don't get to play. It's that simple. Let's say, hypothetically, you have one action per turn, and a turn takes a day. I, a Smith, decide to work on a dagger. Depending on the level of realism in your game, that could take me a full turn, based on skill, materials, and tools. However, if it takes less than one full turn (due to a really good roll or something), what do I do with the runoff time? Well, as a smith, I could make lots of things, like horseshoes, nails, wheel bracings for wheelbarrows, arrowheads, buckles, etc. I'd be very happy to see that I was much more productive than anticipated. Then again, forging a good, solid arming sword or backsword (what most gamers think about when they think "longsword" and "curved sword" respectively) could take a week, possibly longer, so it'd be interesting to see how you would handle something like that.

It's really all about the level of participation you expect, and the level of abstraction you're going to work the game in. Most gamers would be happy to oblige you in whatever you ask, if the rules are sensible.

[GlyphGryph]

What you could do (and I'm not actually recommending this, not having done it myself) is simply let players choose to do tasks that take however long, and run tasks simultaneously, and simply let players know when they finish and you are read for another task submission.

Player 1: "I dig out a new dining hall"
Player 2: "I go fishing to catch some fish."

Host: "Player one, you start work on the new dining hall. You make some decent progress and find a relatively common gems in the process, but you've still got a ways to go. Player two, you manage to hook a big fish which threatens to pull you into the water with it's strength - but it would probably feed a lot of dwarves.

Need action from: Player 2"

Player 1 could still submit an action if they wanted, but it's assumed they'll keep doing what they are doing, and if they had both chosen a task of equal length, he would have finished as well and been ready for his next turn... unless he struck something particularly worth noting (like a cavern), in which case the other players might have to wait for HIM.

If you do end up letting them control multiple dwarves, even with one "main" dwarf, you would probably do this by dwarf, meaning players may have none (if they are all committed to long tasks) or several dwarves to direct in a single turn. That would help, I imagine, with people getting bored thanks to putting their dwarf to work at a lengthy and difficult task.

[Truean]

Right, so now we see a tad of the problem don't we? We've also got a couple proposed solutions (Gryph's multiple dwarf control and Max's sole dwarf control).

Also the monotony might be broken up a bit with some details that change a tad with each time or something. I dunno. That way you don't just have the "I do X" each time. I dunno, I don't think it'd be too terrible to put it as a day per post or to spice it up with details a bit on what you're doing.

Though to be fair, "I make a dining hall." Well, it isn't beyond the pale to wonder where on earth you're going to dig it out (does that count as a play on words? We're gonna pretend it does). This is why we need some type of a map. Hopefully it'll keep positioning straight and maybe inspire people to do some stuff/provide content. I dunno, but let's pretend I do/give suggestions.

The idea of, "I do X" well when X is creating something then presumably that's something you'd wanna use. Rooms will give you places to be in and to fill. Hopefully the products and places you create will themselves giveyou things to do.

On the other hand, I get that referring to the detail may be somewhat of a pain in the ass.... I dunno though. [shrugs] The other thing being that there's nothing that says you have to start out with 7 dwarves and nothing or close to it. You might start in a Dwarven fortress that's established or something. I dunno. Really there are any number of possible locations that could have a would cast of characters and you could (if you wanted) leave to start your own place or leave to join another place already in progress. Who knows.  That is one thing that's fairly freeing about this format.

[MaximumZero]

As far as the actions taken and the characters controlled and whatnot, those rest squarely on your shoulders. Game mechanics like that are only for you to decide, and you should go with whatever makes you the most comfortable.

[GlyphGryph]

Though to be fair, "I make a dining hall." Well, it isn't beyond the pale to wonder where on earth you're going to dig it out

But most people won't. And even more wont want to specify. Most will just want to know if it's easily accessible and doing what it needs to - which is why I originally suggested not to bother with room placements if you do a map, and just do "burrows", and have rooms "in" burrows, and just assume they are all interconnected.

This is why we need some type of a map. Hopefully it'll keep positioning straight and maybe inspire people to do some stuff/provide content. I dunno, but let's pretend I do/give suggestions.

I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means, sorry.

Really there are any number of possible locations that could have a would cast of characters and you could (if you wanted) leave to start your own place or leave to join another place already in progress. Who knows.  That is one thing that's fairly freeing about this format.

Which is why my very first question was "what sort of game do you want?". You still seem to be wavering all over the place on that one, and ultimately, like MZ said, that's something you've got to decide - the most we can do is offer suggestions on how you can get that game.

[Truean]

Eh, good points and maybe people would like more GM control so they don't have to be quite so specific?

Course, the only problem there is "O that isn't what I meant" when the GM does something.... It is kind of a price paid for giving up control a bit though.... I mean if you don't wanna type it out with specificity telling me where to put the room, then I'm gonna put it somewhere because somebody has to....

I don't mind the idea of running things a tad loosely, but the whole point of constructing a fort is .... making the fort which requires somebody make it. Even if nobody draws it out, I just.... think it would be rather hard and unfulfilling having

"Dining room." ....

What's in it, does it have tables, how many, positioned where. Are there fire pits.  Are there booths, raised ares or sunken ones, with direct access to the kitchen. Is there a stage for entertainment. Are there back rooms. Are there private dining rooms off to the side. Is there balcony seating, etc.

I mean, it doesn't HAVE to have any of those things, but see how it becomes a much richer and different experience when it does?

Granite's Galley: (example)

This establishment is roughly square in shape Roughly 25 ft tall, 75 feet wide and 55 feet long. It is dug out two stories tall and accessed primarily from two ten foot wide stairways on the north wall flanking a kitchen room. In front of the kitchen room is a bar area with barrels stacked sideways upon racks, some of which have taps. The bartender routinely reaches under the bar to what must be a shelf holding several mugs and cups. The bar area is raised three steps above the rest of the room with the exception of the kitchen behind it and between the stairs. There is also an exit on the western side of the south wall leading to a tunnel with only one exit: to the courtyard. The final exit is on the eastern part of the south wall leading to the reserved room of the secret society of brewmasters.

The walls are of carved and smoothed granite with pillars set into the wall every 10 ft. Between several of these pillars are wooden racks upon which barrels are stacked four high and three wide. The central floor of the place is rougher stone with a brown carpet featuring a green checkered border. It is the proverbal rug to cut as a dance area. The room features 10 booths, 4 freestanding rectangular wooden tables seating up to 6 and 8 smaller round wooden tables seating 4 at most. These flank the dance floor on areas of smoothed stone with lintersecting line paterns engraved into them on the east and west sides of the room. The center south wall has a raised wooden stage, upon which musicans are encouraged to play.

The walls feature a troll head mounted and hung as a trophy over the door to the kitchen (behind the bar). An orc cheiftan's sword is mounted sideways over a rack of barrels, and brown banners hang from every pillar with their familiar green checkered border.

[paragraph describing some NPCs sitting around the bar and or at tables perhaps]

See how you can do things with that? In addition to taking the bar, the booth or one of the tables, you could find a friend there and talk to them, or seek to gain entrance into the secret society of the brewmasters (they have awesome booze, what dwarf wouldn't want that?)

This is the thing: Sure it's a wall of text (just spat out in about 5 minutes) but hopefully it might even be useful for making  a visual that, "Dining Hall," can't quite manage. I simple picture accompanying this might do wonders, or just be annoying.

No?

Now, as for who builds the bloody thing: I'm guessing if players don't want this level of detail, then not them/NPCs. Otherwise I'm afraid of the number one cause of fort death after FPS coming into play: monotony and getting bored.

Speaking of which, I think the players would have to have a range of skills to give them more options of what the heck do to. Otherwise you're looking at one trick pony territory.

Summary: Simple map with word description as above or abridged per room. Player with multiple abilities = players with multiple options and perhaps freedom to roam.

Hell, maybe rooms like that have a character sheet if important enough?

Thoughts?

{Edit: Maybe you end up with living quarters the same way? I mean that way it does something more than "I have a 5x5 room with a cabinet, chest, bed and window! YAY!" I'm thinking sense of coolness/customization/ownership from that? Whether you have a whole house or just a room to start.... You could have a portion of your wall in some part of your place with shelves for mugs, shelves for small barrels of beverage and a little tap dispenser that faucets the beverage into the mugs... Would take up perhaps 5 ft of wall? Same with trophies, furnishings etc.}

[Sergius]

Just posting to follow, and to show my interest maybe getting a seat in this future RP...

[GlyphGryph]

Honestly, Truean, I think you're ready. At this point, most of the remaining questions can only answered by: personal experience, the makeup of your players, and the goals as you decide them (which should be clear in your opening post, which sets the scene for the soon to be players)

When are you going to start?

[MaximumZero]

Honestly, Truean, I think you're ready. At this point, most of the remaining questions can only answered by: personal experience, the makeup of your players, and the goals as you decide them (which should be clear in your opening post, which sets the scene for the soon to be players)

When are you going to start?

This is pretty much it. There's also one more thing you need to remember when you make this game, though.

Losing is fun.

[Sergius]

Yeah, you've got to crack a few omelettes to make an egg.

[Truean]

Honestly, Truean, I think you're ready.

That makes one of us. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm not sure I have the time at the moment for it. Is something to reward myself with though if I get things done that need to be etc etc etc. I have some interesting things to work on for it a bit first though.

Also there is some background to work on.

There are large lizards you see. They can grow to 10 ft long and 4 ft wide. There are also goblins and a certain tribe of humans.

The large lizards are sacred to the goblins and supper to the humans. Hilarity ensues.

[MaximumZero]

Don't too bogged down in details. That's where I currently am with my forum-game-sideproject. It's ready to go, but I just have to add that one. final. detail. Then I see something else to add.