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Author Topic: Let's Discuss: Magic  (Read 2775 times)

GreatWyrmGold

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Let's Discuss: Magic
« on: September 21, 2012, 06:22:12 pm »

As we all (should) know, Toady intends to add magic into the game eventually. This has sparked much discussion over what kinds of magic to add, and to whom. Magic is perhaps one of the most suggested topics on the Suggestions subforum.
This thread is intended to be a place where we can bounce around ideas about all kinds of magic and supernatural abilities and who gets what. To kick off discussion, I'll suggest some topics of conversation.

--What kinds of magic should there be?
-----More secrets? (I.e. magical knowledge can only be discovered by gods and other mighty creatures, but can be learned by anyone)
-----Innate magic? (I.e. some people just "know" how to do magic)
-----Natural magic? (I.e. you draw power from plants, animals, and stuff to manipulate them or whatever)
-----"Contract" magic? (I.e. someone gives you magic power for a price)
-----Divine magic? (I.e. you worship a god and it does miracles for you)
-----Wild magic? (I.e. naturally-occurring, barely- or uncontrollable magical effects)
-----Rune magic? (I.e. magic from magical symbols)
-----Alchemy? (I.e. magical chemistry)
-----Other? (I.e. anything I wasn't clever enough to think of)
--Who should have what kinds of magic?
--How much magic should various races have?
--How much should nonsentient creatures be able to use magic?
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Putnam

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 10:23:54 pm »

What magic should be in DF, in my view:

Secrets and divine magic (they go hand-in-hand, really)
Natural magic (there are magical plants and such already E.G sun berries, as well as magical animals--good biomes are pretty magical)
Artifact magic (magical affects assigned to artifacts; can be silly things like "causes left first toe to swell when stab" or serious things like "the undead shudder at its might", or both, but I like the idea in the first place--the more procedurally generated things this game has, the better)
Some magical chemistry (mixing together plants of certain "kinds" to make potions would be nice--in fact, I've already experimented with the idea in modding).

kaijyuu

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 01:31:39 am »

I've always thought magic should be divine in origin. So, dwarves/etc would get it from religion. This being Dwarf Fortress, what exactly the magic does should probably be procedurally generated along with the deity's attributes.
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Wrex

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 01:36:08 am »

Define "Divine". I'm sure demons would have some ability to grant powers.
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dwarfhoplite

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 07:23:41 am »

Magic is a difficult subject because it loses its meaning if it is easily controllable.

I would like to see dwarves forship their deities in a temple. There could be a variable - Gods' favor
Gods could have demands, for example
-food gifts (certain amount)
-sacrifice animals
-change laws (not implemented yet)
-bring certain objects to the altar
-kill enemies
-punish citizens of certain actions

Gods' desire could change continuously making it more interesting. If gods' will is not fullfilled or if dwarves take actions which are against gods' will, should gods' favor variable be reduced.

This is just a quick brainstorm
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Escapism

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 08:04:48 am »

Define "Divine". I'm sure demons would have some ability to grant powers.

Agreed. Same with other supernatural creatures. I also think that the distinction shouldn't be so discrete; a demonic (evil) being might be able to grant powers within the sphere of fire, but so might a spirit that resides in a volcano or the god of fire. The powers are of the same kind, but depending on the entity that grants them vary in power and spheres (naturally, demonic beings would probably not be able to heal with their magic, and good beings would not be able to animate corpses etc.). To maintain your powers, you would have to serve the entity in question.

I think it would be cool if you could also enslave minor magical beings (eventually greater ones as well) and use their magic for yourself. Maybe consuming their magic (soul?) in some way, resulting in you gaining their powers. If you manage to gain enough power, you could eventually seek to ascend into godhood yourself. This would require a tremendous amount of power, of course, with the gods taking notice of your progress and seeking to stop you in your path.

I also think that magic should be strictly related to spheres in an as generalized manner as possible, while at the same adhering as much to ordinary dwarven physics and existing features (such as syndromes) as possible. I wrote a post about this (and regarding borrowed magic) in a magic thread some months ago:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, the possibility of just leveling whole cities in seconds when you have gained enough power seems too good to leave out. Would bring a whole new meaning to the whole "kill every living thing in adventurer mode" thing people was doing a while ago. A mad god of immense power sitting on a throne of bones atop a mountain of skulls, ruling over a desolate and completely barren world in ruins, where the only sound heard is that of a deeply disturbing, maniacal laughter carried on the wind. Hehehe...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 08:16:48 am by Escapism »
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Graknorke

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 09:21:16 am »

I like the idea of magic as posed in one of the Threetoe's stories. Cado's Journey I think it was called. Basically, the easiest to learn magic was done by manipulating various elements of the world, but while keeping them balanced, and it took some other kind of magic to allow change without reaction.
I really need to read it again. I'll probably edit the post to explain myself better when I'm finished.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 05:42:06 pm »

Magic is a difficult subject because it loses its meaning if it is easily controllable.
It also loses something if it is uncontrollable. A balance needs to be found between "magic is nothing more than another tool" and "magic is a natural force, like floods and wildfires."
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furuka

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 05:29:00 am »

The way I imagined magic coming out of DF was:

2 things allow access to deliberate use of magic.
-Powerful beings like gods and demons which have access to magic in accordance with their nature.
-A magical equivalent of a mood in sentient creatures which, when satisfied, granted the power.

Also, I think magical beings, like a creature that can fly without exploiting aerodynamics, should have some physiological tie to their magic, such as a magical organ, or an affinity or favor with some deity that grants them the power.


I agree that it's important to keep a balance between control and chaos when implementing magic, and so its use must be limited and acquisition difficult. At the same time, it's cool to have a society that makes regular use of some minor form of magic and it is simply a staple of their culture.

So since the dawn of time, different people can create shrines and temples, act in accordance with a preferred deity, and so on, and if, let's say, the deity's mood is befitting, a deserving follower might be chosen for a secret knowledge. But there should be some requirements of attributes for knowing and using the secret, and how the magic manifests should also be governed by the attributes.

If, for example, a person learns heat magic from the lava god, and later -with reading and writing, or a high skill in teaching- passes this knowledge on to someone they like and trust, but who has low self control, that person might spontaneously combust.
An unskillful necromancer might make weak, decrepit zombies. Maybe they can only animate mostly intact corpses, or maybe they can only animate small pieces.


For dwarves, I like the idea of magical items and runes rather than spellcasting. Knowledge of magical materials as well as arbitrary imbuing magic on something through some learned secret would be fun. Artifacts should remain random, deliberate use could work for simple stat boosting, making a finished product lighter or heavier than the material would normally permit, making it harder, sharper. But with the required affinity so that it's difficult to make industrial use of it. Maybe an offering or ritual which succeeds if the beseeched god is pleased.

Truly magical artifacts, though, such as a flaming lava whip, or a hammer of preposterous strength, should be a mood thing. And it should have a pretty good chance of having drawbacks. Urist has picked up the super heavy laser edged axe of brain melting, but if he ever drops it he will melt himself. Only binds to wielder after drawing blood, does not melt anyone if not wielded (weapon traps or shotguns)


Proper magicians or sorcerers should be rare, and multidisciplinary use of magic should require extraordinary affinities, books should only pass on knowledge to the extent the writer has the affinity, same as if they are simply copied (which may or may not makes sense, but it seems somewhat more balanced that way) so that, let's say, if a fortress produces a book of knowledge because some guy learned to become a lava dwarf at will or when angered because he brought a glob of molten metal with his bare hands to the shrine, then his book can be used by others with the affinity to do so. In this case, the affinity may be some personality traits like "does not care if things are disorganized" "likes to be warm" and some quantitative magical attributes, like "magical understanding 2" and "magical susceptibility 8" and "Magical control 6" then the guy can learn it too. Maybe based on his personality of "has an eagerness to learn magic."

But then, if someone "has an eagerness to learn magic," finds the book, and tries it out, he melts to his fiery death. Or maybe his hands melt because he was a that bad at it.

So a good magic teacher would have a high stat in "teaching" "judge of character" and the magical affinities. If he was a poor judge of character, he would pick the wrong student, who would melt. And maybe set things on fire, which may or may not be inconvenient.
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Waparius

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 08:06:27 am »

Honestly I'm mostly in favour of secrets and artefacts, because both of those are interesting and have a balance between control and randomness.

Artefacts probably should make at least a little more sense than, "chest of making the owner's big toe turn purple" - maybe some kind of procedural-generation thing that takes into account what type of item it is and builds its effects through combining a number of possibilities, so that when the clothier gets possessed and starts making a cloak, the game spins its dice and comes up with:

[Worn Item Power List: Transforms Wearer/Grants Power/Allows Wearer To Create/etc]
[Possession Theme List: Monsters/Undead/Syndromes/etc]

And suddenly when a dwarf puts on the artifact cloak, the goblin army outside - and any dwarves he's got a grudge against - suddenly have their skin rot off.

So next time you get attacked, you can get your militia commander or whoever to put on the cloak and curse the invaders. The powers you get are up to the game, but once you have them you can use them over and again.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:09:14 am by Waparius »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 08:10:20 am »

Why does everyone assume "procedurally generated" means "bat crap random?"
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Graknorke

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 08:50:06 am »

Okay, I read through the opening of Cado's Magical Journey again, and I think I can explain what I mean better.
Gods and certain artifacts that they create have complete control over their sphere. A fire god, if uncontested and a total clownhat, could set the entire world on fire, or create a glove for the use of non-gods that could create huge plumes of flame to burn enemies. The god has the ability to manipulate the forces to their whims.
With lesser creatures though, things are different. Most cannot even manipulate the magical fields around them, it takes a lot of learning, from masters of magic, or from the books and tablets left behind by the gods. Even then, it takes a very strong affinity or a lot of training to be able to use magic with any degree of strength.
And with mortals, they always have the balances to consider. While gods have control over their spheres, mortals have to work within the existing constraints. For the simpler magics, such as moving objects, something like throwing a book across a room may only require a counterbalance of shifting the air in the room around. Simply action and reaction, as we're used to. As another example, setting an enemy on fire might be achieved just by making the rest of the room colder, maintaining the balance.
But there are more complicated things, such as death or chaos or creating life. This is where things start to become a little more difficult than just simple balancing, because these are less literal things you can move. Alternate planes could well come into play here, such as the creating life actually striking down an equivalent creature in some sort of magic plane of existence, in order to fuel the one you have just created.
As well as that some object could be charged with an arbitrary unit of magic measurement, which allows it to be converted into any other sphere of magic. The amount that it could hold would be based on the quality and decorations of the object. This could be used for things like inheritance in world gen, where a master fire mage would make a trek to a volcano, and convert its heat into magic to store inside a high quality and well encrusted ring for his apprentice to use. The ring may well have so much charge, given it being so high quality, the amount of energy stored within a volcano, and the mage who charged it being so skilled; the magic may well last long enough that the apprentice never uses it all, and that it ends up into the hands of your adventurer or the stockpiles of your fortress.

And I suppose mooded artifacts would come under being made by gods, if a possession, or using the dwarf's magical knowledge, if anything else.
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Mesa

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 10:42:11 am »

I think it would also be kinda "epic" if you could actually make a deal with a demon and he/she could learn you/one of your dwarves how to magic.
Alongside other ways, that is.

It would be THE best if we had MANY ways of obtaining magic, you know...
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Helari

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 12:53:35 pm »

With lesser creatures though, things are different. Most cannot even manipulate the magical fields around them, it takes a lot of learning, from masters of magic, or from the books and tablets left behind by the gods. Even then, it takes a very strong affinity or a lot of training to be able to use magic with any degree of strength.

Tedious "training" for magic skills and any other skills should imho play out in a fast forward way, for example by simulating your adventurer being put into a routine of eating, drinking, sleeping and (abstractly) training at or nearby their trainer, the "fast forward" could be cut when your adventurer becomes for example notably hungry or detects an enemy creature or is spoken to.

Ofcourse, in that case there should also be ways of advancing your magic abilities in more active ways apart from droning for a master.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Let's Discuss: Magic
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 01:03:22 pm »

With lesser creatures though, things are different. Most cannot even manipulate the magical fields around them, it takes a lot of learning, from masters of magic, or from the books and tablets left behind by the gods. Even then, it takes a very strong affinity or a lot of training to be able to use magic with any degree of strength.

Tedious "training" for magic skills and any other skills should imho play out in a fast forward way, for example by simulating your adventurer being put into a routine of eating, drinking, sleeping and (abstractly) training at or nearby their trainer, the "fast forward" could be cut when your adventurer becomes for example notably hungry or detects an enemy creature or is spoken to.
I agree with this, in general principle as well. Studying swordplay for 20 years should't take 20 years IRL.
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