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[pisskop]

Halo is superfun.  ahh, those were the days, when you could whop up on your friends ass in the school cafeteria before classes... None of that xbox live stuff, no stupid 10 yr olds.  No just a man and a gun and fresh chocolate chip cookies, 3 for 1 dollar...

DF adventure has maybe half the keybindings a game like nethack had, and fort mode spells it all out, just about.  What to press is not an issue here.

[Gaybarowner]

I can see it happening like the minecraft effect as I called it
But toady and three are pretty calm guys i doubt it will fall into such things

[vonduus]

As DF grows, will it start to implode? I don't think so. The frame rates could be a problem, but I believe Toady has already done some optimizing, at least I feel that DF2012 runs a lot faster at the start of the game than 40d did, and as we all know, in this game perception is reality .  I am confident that he will optimize again, when the game becomes unplayable on his or his brothers computers. Which, for all that I know, are standard machines like yours and mine.

About learning:

I tried literally for years to get into this game, but the learning curve was way too steep for me. Then came 40d and an excellent tutorial, called "Total noob tutorial" or something like that. It basically took me by the hand, telling me exactly what I needed to do first, including which keys to press, and then what to do next etc., teaching me all the basics and ending with showing me how to organize a working military, even providing workarounds for the bugs. 

This tutorial was a total package (a little like the LazyNewb pack), so it came with Maydays tileset, DFHack, Dwarf Therapist and (importantly) a pregenerated map with magma and flux stones. Someone ought to update that tutorial to DF2012 and put it on the wiki, or ask LucasUP to include it in his LazyNewb Pack. A youtube tutorial is not good enough, the game is too complex for this, there is simply too much to remember, and you need something that you can print out and refer to while playing. At least I did.

Btw, it was also a great help that my son sat next to me for two days and coached me. After those two days the rest of the very steep learning curve seemed a lot more manageable. That is, until the !FUN! started with the first goblin invasion. I pass over the many forts that prematurely died because of accidental water/magma flooding, or tantrum spirals caused by failing to provide enough booze/food, or from attacks from the deep because of sloppy security practices, or... All these failures were just incentives to start a new fort and do it right the next time. This is basically my present position: Trying to make THIS fort last forever. I have no idea how many forts I have lost, and I expect to loose a lot more in the future.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? To me it is good. Proof: I am still playing Dwarf Fortress. By now I know the important key commands by heart, so I can concentrate on playing the game. Of course there is a lot of things I still don't understand, but that is another incentive to read the wiki and start a new fort.

About UI:

I never played rogue-likes before, so to me the interface was a nightmare to learn. I fully understand the frustrations of those that try vanilla and want a new ui. I wrote my complaints here on Bay12 and I was promptly told that Toady don't like to write interfaces, that he is doing DF for fun, and that I should be thankful that I am allowed to play his private game for free. I didn't like to be told this by some elitist Bay12'er, as I thought then, but I soon realized that if I wanted to play, I had to live with the existing ui. And those "elitists" eventually turned out to be very nice people, who really tried to help when I had some legitimate game problems. This was back in 40d.

Now we play DF2012, and a lot has happened: The community has provided several tilesets to choose from, DFHack has a lot more functions and bug fixes, Dwarf Therapist now supports animals, the DF wiki is almost all-comprehensive, and there is mouse support, thanks to Shukaro. And there is sound effects, too. So there really is no need for a new ui. Also the "elitists" are still on the forum, sharing their advanced knowledge with me. I grant that the full effect of all these utilities might be out of reach for the noob, but then again: This is Dwarf fortress, it is not supposed to be easy.

DF is not for everyone. Like, I get killed instantly when I play some FPShooter, so I have decided that FPSs is not for me. I am simply not fan enough of the genre to go through the frustration of dying every 10 seconds. Also, DF is hard to learn, but having learned it, it is the most rewarding game I have played, ever. Even if my forts always die in the end. If you find it is too difficult, then perhaps this game is not for you. You probably need to be a very wilful person and a little bit autistic to fully enjoy the game. I mean, only real nerds enjoy scrolling through a ton of text to get rid of some worn socks.

My hopes for the future is that DF will go beta at some future time, hopefully years from now, and stay there. The important thing is that Toady continues to enjoy developing the game. In the meantime, problems with the interface will be fixed by the community, eventually.

Note to self: I have played for free for several years now, so it is a disgrace that I haven't donated yet .

[smirk]

This tutorial was a total package (a little like the LazyNewb pack), so it came with Maydays tileset, DFHack, Dwarf Therapist and (importantly) a pregenerated map with magma and flux stones. Someone ought to update that tutorial to DF2012 and put it on the wiki, or ask LucasUP to include it in his LazyNewb Pack. A youtube tutorial is not good enough, the game is too complex for this, there is simply too much to remember, and you need something that you can print out and refer to while playing. At least I did.

Ah, that'd be the Complete and Utter Newby Tutorial. Same one that got me into the game =D  TinyPirate wrote that, and it's outta date now but he's published a DF Tutorial book that's basically the same thing updated. By which I mean, you buy it as an eBook and then whenever Toady releases new DF versions TinyPirate will update the book and you get a free updated copy. I got the paper version too just for classiness factor, and it's pretty awesome. [/shill]

Also, donate. You'll feel better for it! AND you can get a snazzy crayon drawing.

[parlor_tricks]

Ah 40d. We did some interesting things back then didn't we. Wasn't that the version where someone found that dwarf heaven map?

[vonduus]

Dwarf Heaven??? Is it still in the game? I never heard of it, but it sounds !FUN!, with I imagine flaming swords and stuff. But I was a complete and utter newbie at that time, I felt lucky when I just found a way to survive another season:). I still do. But yes, it was interesting times. It still is, with all the new ways to die, hell and all. And it looks as if the future will be !FUN! too.

I saw the book advertised, I didn't know the author was the guy who made DF possible for me. But I decided not to buy it then, as it would not seem right to pay for a book on DF when I haven't yet paid for the game. I wish there was an easier way to transfer money from Europe to the USA (not having a credit card). Perhaps the old way is best: I will buy some dollars in my bank, put it in an envelope and post it by snail mail. That is what I will do. It is pay day next week, and yes, smirk, I am sure I will feel better, right now I feel quite embarrassed. (Which is the reason that I am publicly flashing my free-rider-ness: To humiliate myself into paying.)

Updated note to self: Donate to Bay12 and buy the book.

edit: Smirk, I just read the quote from Toady in your sig, it kind of explains everything. All hail to ToadyOne.

[SRD]

True, and I know DF as 'the game you play on pause.

I used to think of DF as one of those giant ant colony box things..

[rcmgames]

When you talk about a game like DF, it's so much more complex than any game I've ever played, or even heard of. And that's at it's state right now. I can only imagine the complexity as more things are added. I doubt it will be made more easy to play, as so many players love how deep you can get into game play.

I'm not concerned about newbies; if they WANT to play, they will learn. If they aren't meant to play DF they won't want to spend the time to learn. I'm merely asking if WE are ever going to feel over come with features, things to watch, things to do, things to manage? I forget things all the time at this point, what will it be like in the future?

If the simple answer is, 'there will be better UI/ways to manage the micromanagement through manager-type positions,' then call be Urist McDumbDwarf, and we can shut this damn thing down.

[Inarius]

I don't think it will implode. I think that Toady is intelligent, and very close to us, the players. So when the complexity will become overwhelming, he will do things to correct it.

[Sutremaine]

And does this necessitate having advisers who say, "The Mountainhomes need 35 axes and 35 sets of armor!" which give you an option to say, "Yes, tell the manager to do just that!"?? Or is it not that simple?

I believe that if trade requests have that level of importance, they will be given their own subsystem. As a quick example, if your fortress received a request for 35 axes and 35 armour pieces, it would be sent to the trade requests screen, where the options there would handle the request and either pass it onto the manager or leave it for the player to sort out. The options could cover both materials and items. You could let the game make anything out of anything, or you could disallow steel as an option for automatic trade request fulfilment, or you could disallow all toys and crafts so that you can control what they're made out of or whether they're even made at all.

[rcmgames]

And does this necessitate having advisers who say, "The Mountainhomes need 35 axes and 35 sets of armor!" which give you an option to say, "Yes, tell the manager to do just that!"?? Or is it not that simple?

I believe that if trade requests have that level of importance, they will be given their own subsystem. As a quick example, if your fortress received a request for 35 axes and 35 armour pieces, it would be sent to the trade requests screen, where the options there would handle the request and either pass it onto the manager or leave it for the player to sort out. The options could cover both materials and items. You could let the game make anything out of anything, or you could disallow steel as an option for automatic trade request fulfilment, or you could disallow all toys and crafts so that you can control what they're made out of or whether they're even made at all.

I wish this was in the current version: being able to tell what material to make items out of, without the convoluted way of linking stockpiles, etc.

[adasdad]

Management isn't the issue.

The issue is in the fact that the more complicated the game gets, the steeper the learning curve becomes.

won't be a problem for me! I picked up eve online in a few days when i was ten, i can handle anything DF throws at me.

[Leatra]

I like complex games. When DF implodes, I will be at the center of it's implosion.

The only thing that bugs me is about how our computers are going to handle DF. Multi-threading isn't an option right now and I don't think it will ever be.

[Berossus]

There is good complexity and needless complexity.

Having to outfit your dwarves with clothing is a good complexity.
Having to outfit them with individual socks, having individual socks produced and having individual socks manually dumped is needlessly complex. Its like a chores simulator sometimes.

Having different food from different animals is good complexity.
Having 73548 different kinds of meat-products from animals is overcomplexed, especially if theres no real difference except for individual preferrence of dwarves you cannot really cater for anyways.

Having 500 different kinds of stone is good, cause they have many different "abilities". Also this is about dwarves. Dwarves freaking love stone.
Having 500 different kinds of leather is needless, especially if it is all the same.

[Revanchist]

I like complex games. When DF implodes, I will be at the center of it's implosion.

The only thing that bugs me is about how our computers are going to handle DF. Multi-threading isn't an option right now and I don't think it will ever be.

Does anyone know about how many people play and write on this forum?
Or a rough estimate of how many people play the game without the forum?
I think that the number of players is more than sufficient currently, and if something did happen, it would be a simple-ish matter for Toady to save it. Basically, it's what I take to be implosion-proof. But that's just me.