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[rcmgames]

I learn more and more about DF everyday. Now listening to the latest podcast again, a strange thought hit me: as more things get added to the game, and the more complex it becomes, will DF ever get to a spot where there are TOO many things to manage, quite like the way it works in the real world? Rulers have advisers and such to do work for them, then make decisions on what is reported back. In DF, it seems a lot to have to manage expansion, industry, morale, military, trade... New things like dwarven outposts beside your fortress, giving and taking dwarves/goods from them... Dealing with actual civilizations around you, with dynamic factors of growth, needs, etc...

I haven't played a fortress with 200 dwarves for years and years, so tell me if I'm just not at a high level yet... but if this game keeps getting more and more in depth do you believe it will start to become cumbersome?

P.S. I love DF and only wish it to get more intricate. I'm just posing a question to see where people see it going...

[Jalen]

Now listening to the latest podcast again, a strange thought hit me: as more things get added to the game, and the more complex it becomes, will DF ever get to a spot where there are TOO many things to manage, quite like the way it works in the real world? Rulers have advisers and such to do work for them, then make decisions on what is reported back.

In real life you do not have a pause option.

[decev]

Maybe we'll start to see more things like the manager that make menial tasks easier, but aren't strictly necessary so you can micromanage to whatever level you want to.

[rcmgames]

Now listening to the latest podcast again, a strange thought hit me: as more things get added to the game, and the more complex it becomes, will DF ever get to a spot where there are TOO many things to manage, quite like the way it works in the real world? Rulers have advisers and such to do work for them, then make decisions on what is reported back.

In real life you do not have a pause option.

True, and I know DF as 'the game you play on pause," but I mean more along the lines of so many more things to manage that it takes the fun out of the game when you have to spend so much time managing each and every one.

Maybe we'll start to see more things like the manager that make menial tasks easier, but aren't strictly necessary so you can micromanage to whatever level you want to.

So basically you could have a set of advisers, much like how the manager works, which would automate some of this new work for you.

[XXSockXX]

I don't see that happening at all. The way it is now most micromanagment is pretty optional and there a are many many features you don't have to use to have a great gaming experience. In the first few years of a fort a lot of micromanagment may be necessary to get everything set up, but after a while most of my forts can almost run themselves with a few orders every once in a while. If you don't care too much about value/quality/material of your items for example and instead focus on something else, you can do just that. If you choose to only have masterwork gold items that's fine too. That is what I like about this game, there are so many ways of playing it, you never really run out of things you can do. I have been playing a lot for quite a while and there are still many things I haven't tried yet. IMHO more features just means more options.

[rcmgames]

I agree that once things are set up, there isn't a lot you have to do to keep it all going swell. What I'm imagining is the effect of new things like active and dynamic civilizations. The plans are to have caravans requesting items they really NEED, and if they need a ton of weapons that you aren't making, or refuse to make, then a nearby civ will be destroyed, turning a stronger army your way. Things like this seem like they will effect the way you HAVE to play the game, making your micromanaging more responsible for the things that are happening around your game. And does this necessitate having advisers who say, "The Mountainhomes need 35 axes and 35 sets of armor!" which give you an option to say, "Yes, tell the manager to do just that!"?? Or is it not that simple?

[mustafa2812]

I think that although DF is the most complex game ever imo and it is getting more and more in depth as time goes on, that doesn't mean that it has to be getting more and more complex.  Interfaces can be streamlined, menial tasks can be self regulated, and many things are optional.  As has already been said, the manager makes things much easier and I hope that job will be expanded on somehow.  Also there are many things like fluid pumping, minecarts, mechanics, and various industries that are optional and are not necessary to delve into.  I think that as DF grows, it will compensate for the added features with streamlining as it has been doing.  Toady knows DF is just a videogame at heart (not just a complex simulator) and therefore it must be enjoyable and not toilsome.  Of course the general population would consider it toilsome, bu it is made for a certain breed of gamers.  This being said, I am curious how he is going to implement full world interactions without making it too complex.     

[XXSockXX]

I agree that once things are set up, there isn't a lot you have to do to keep it all going swell. What I'm imagining is the effect of new things like active and dynamic civilizations. The plans are to have caravans requesting items they really NEED, and if they need a ton of weapons that you aren't making, or refuse to make, then a nearby civ will be destroyed, turning a stronger army your way. Things like this seem like they will effect the way you HAVE to play the game, making your micromanaging more responsible for the things that are happening around your game. And does this necessitate having advisers who say, "The Mountainhomes need 35 axes and 35 sets of armor!" which give you an option to say, "Yes, tell the manager to do just that!"?? Or is it not that simple?

But that will just be a matter of balance, which I'm sure Toady will adress. I don't think there will be a situation where you will need to give the mountainhome 100 pieces of steel armor from your no-mining above-ground fort or the world will be overrun by goblins. The whole active world thing might make the game more complicated, but it will somehow work out.

[Canadark]

Management isn't the issue.

The issue is in the fact that the more complicated the game gets, the steeper the learning curve becomes.

[XXSockXX]

The issue is in the fact that the more complicated the game gets, the steeper the learning curve becomes.

That also depends on what is optional. You don't need to learn how to make complicated magma traps to have a sucessful fort. The learning curve for basic survival is not that steep and everything else is in the players hands. I also think of the learning curve as something that makes the late game more enjoyable, there are always things to figure out and that makes the game more rewarding.

[rcmgames]

The issue is in the fact that the more complicated the game gets, the steeper the learning curve becomes.

That also depends on what is optional. You don't need to learn how to make complicated magma traps to have a sucessful fort. The learning curve for basic survival is not that steep and everything else is in the players hands. I also think of the learning curve as something that makes the late game more enjoyable, there are always things to figure out and that makes the game more rewarding.

I guess it really all comes down to how Toady One will handle putting these things into the game. Yes, magma traps are completely optional, but the way it seems civilization interaction will be put in makes it seem less optional, especially when you're not meeting demands/expectations. It just seems like ignoring this part of the game (civilization relations) will now help to end your game and crumble your fortress more quickly. And obviously none of us know how this all will happen, we can only speculate.

[XXSockXX]

Right. I'm just confident it will be fine. Even now you can turn off a lot of features like artifacts and invaders if you want to. I'm sure world interaction will be realized in a way that works fine for the vast majority of players.

[omg_scout]

Yeah, unfortunately I tend to agree with op. It needs "jumping into" which is getting harder and harder and would be impossible without wiki. Even now, I cannot have any of my hardcore roguelike player buddies play df, even though they try and they agree that stories created by df are merely awesome.

It is the most awesome game I know, and the most demanding. Every patch, it is getting more awesome yet more demanding.

[i2amroy]

Yeah, unfortunately I tend to agree with op. It needs "jumping into" which is getting harder and harder and would be impossible without wiki. Even now, I cannot have any of my hardcore roguelike player buddies play df, even though they try and they agree that stories created by df are merely awesome.

Once the next patch comes out have them do adventure mode, which is basically a rouge-like. Then work your way from that up to fortress mode.

[Canadark]

The issue is in the fact that the more complicated the game gets, the steeper the learning curve becomes.

That also depends on what is optional. You don't need to learn how to make complicated magma traps to have a sucessful fort. The learning curve for basic survival is not that steep and everything else is in the players hands. I also think of the learning curve as something that makes the late game more enjoyable, there are always things to figure out and that makes the game more rewarding.

I guess it really all comes down to how Toady One will handle putting these things into the game. Yes, magma traps are completely optional, but the way it seems civilization interaction will be put in makes it seem less optional, especially when you're not meeting demands/expectations. It just seems like ignoring this part of the game (civilization relations) will now help to end your game and crumble your fortress more quickly. And obviously none of us know how this all will happen, we can only speculate.

I have no complaints but I think that the direction of development has always been geared towards people who already play the game. I also agree that the addition of more complicated elements and the discoveries made by players contribute to dwarf fortress's most endearing quality: depth.