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[TheSpaceMan]

It's to much when dwarf fortress is running smooth in dwarf fortress.

[Vengeful Donut]

quote:Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>I agree with the OP, however I think that this whole "problem" can be linked to the horrible ASCII based "graphics design" and the very bad interface. If those would be improved [for example players could make proper tilesets, if there would be support for it], it would be more simple to play a more comlex game even.
Right now with this ASCII mess, new players are basically scared away, and since the new version will be even more complex.....I doubt that DF will have too much new players.</STRONG>

Seeing you rant so often about the graphics is irritating. And you've yet to give any reason graphics are better other than new user prejudice. It's nice that you have an ideal and want to see it realized, but saying something more often doesn't make it more convincing. You've said it. People have read it. The idea has been delivered. You've seen the response. Now what?

[ravensword227]

quote:Originally posted by Vengeful Donut:
<STRONG>
Seeing you rant so often about the graphics is irritating. And you've yet to give any reason graphics are better other than new user prejudice.</STRONG>

I've been trying to get a friend interested in the game; and, with the ASCII presentation of things, he doesn't seem too interested except for map generation (he's a programmer also experimenting in this area).  

I think he said something to the effect that "[it was] a lot of good ideas for nothing".  I tried to explain to them how the dwarves have unique personalities and how that affects the game.  I tried to explain how you get used to ASCII with a little time.  He said he might try it when the new version was out.

As to my personal experience, I learned about DF from the SA game subforum; and, even though I was greatly into graphics-mode Nethack at the time, the DF post with the ASCII commas and periods was too much information to process.  I figured it had about the depth of an amature flash-based online game.  I didn't go so far as to read the posts from people demonstrating how awesome the game was.

But DF was in the SA game forums, at the top of the list, for several weeks straight - I couldn't ignore it.  I tried it in Adventure mode and moved on to Fortress mode and I've been loving it ever since.

[ October 28, 2007: Message edited by: ravensword227 ]

[BurnedToast]

IMHO anyone who tosses DF aside because of the graphics is stupid and doesn't deserve to play.

I will never, ever, understand the current style over substance trend that has lame rehashes of games being sold with the only major difference being a new coat of paint. Who cares what a game looks like if it has good, original, interesting gameplay?

anyway, back on topic, no the next version is not too much. There is no such thing as too much. steep learning curve = fun. Dying horribly because of some new thing you had never even considered = fun (as long as it's fair, but that's another topic). Easy, dumbed down, everyone can win all the time gameplay? lame.

[Serialized]

quote:Originally posted by BurnedToast:
<STRONG>IMHO anyone who tosses DF aside because of the graphics is stupid and doesn't deserve to play.

I will never, ever, understand the current style over substance trend that has lame rehashes of games being sold with the only major difference being a new coat of paint. Who cares what a game looks like if it has good, original, interesting gameplay?</STRONG>

Easy to comprehend interfaces help the user understand what is happening in the game. Well designed interfaces help the user interact with the game and thus improve its gameplay value.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but adding tilesets and cleaning up the interface is already in the plans, under Core50-52.

[JT]

quote:Originally posted by TheSpaceMan:
<STRONG>It's to much when dwarf fortress is running smooth in dwarf fortress.</STRONG>

Gah, now you've done-- stack error: infinite recursion

[greatleapforward]

quote:Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>The next feature that many want is individual tiles for each distinct item (currently tiles are used for many things, for instance bins and floodgates both use X). </STRONG>

But how far do you go? Once you have individual tiles for each combination of item and material, do you then add information on their quality, contents, decorations, etc? You're still going to have to resort to the look command at some point. The game is built around each individual item having a great deal of relevant information associated with it.

If Dwarf Fortress was a top-down shooter and you couldn't tell the various power-ups and enemies apart, then of course that would be a complete shambles. But roguelikes aren’t made that way; the difficulties involved in conveying all potentially useful information via graphics alone are just an intrinsic part of their design. If that irritates somebody to the point where they don't want to play the game, then fair enough, but I don't see how they could be stymied by the surface appearance but not by the mechanics that it implies.

[Soulwynd]

I know I cannot speak for Toady, but I can speak as a semi-retired developer.

It's never too much.

Toady has the right to do whatever he wants with the game without everyone whining about it. 'Course, he can always listen to players and take their suggestions here and there.

I just don't think it is very fair to go around judging a game, saying it might be becoming too much and specially in this case, where you always have the option to play an older version.

I for one hope Toady will finish all the plans he currently has for this game and hopefully he will still be planing to make it even more complex.

[BurnedToast]

quote:Originally posted by Serialized:
<STRONG>

Easy to comprehend interfaces help the user understand what is happening in the game. Well designed interfaces help the user interact with the game and thus improve its gameplay value.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but adding tilesets and cleaning up the interface is already in the plans, under Core50-52.</STRONG>

Of course the interface could use some improvement, and it will get some eventually. I don't know that I really consider the interface as graphics, but rather a part of the gameplay. hard to control = bad gameplay.

as far as the tiles go, meh. graphics are not BAD, they are just the absolute least important part. If it's relatively easy to add tileset support so other people can make graphics while toady makes the game then I guess that's a good compromise.

[sluissa]

graphics aren't necessarily bad, but badly done graphics can be worse than the current set up.

I've tried playing roguelikes with graphics/tilesets before but I always go back to text-only and keyboard-only controls if i have the choice.

As for too much, let the developer decide that. One of my favorite games out there was Starfleet 2. That was a text only game that ended up being too much, not for the player, but for the developer. Bugs were left in the final version, things never got finished, but what was there was an excellent game worthy of playing at least until you got to the parts where the bugs seriously effected the gameplay. I'd still play it today if it wasn't practically impossible to play on a computer with any reasonably modern cpu. I might go searching for a 386 or something out there one day.

[Grek]

This is a great idea, which should get done right after the army caravan and diplomacy arcs are.

[Joker]

I'll chime in on the sentiment that the game is actually not overly complicated - it just has an interface that needs a complete overhaul. In addition, the interface lacks tools to do things directly which are nonetheless required to do. Many indirect steps are needed in something like changing a dwarf's armor, where such things could be simplified to a couple key/mouse strokes.

Adding in a little more direct control of some dwarf actions could eliminate a great deal of the interface entirely.

Even with the new version, there really isn't a dizzying array of options so much as it's not so clear HOW to implement ideas. To me, a "complicated" (far far TOO complicated) game is something like Hearts of Iron, with 200-page manuals in 6-point font and 50-page patch release notes.

When the interface is standardized and simplified the learning curve of DF will drop dramatically, imo. Learning how the menus work and where everything was hidden in various menus took me a couple of weeks of hardcore playing and wiki-browsing, and I've been gaming since games that look like DF ran on TRS-80's with cassette drives.    :p

[ October 29, 2007: Message edited by: Joker ]

[ October 29, 2007: Message edited by: Joker ]

[Entity]

More complexity is good, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm worried about game speed dropping as more and more features are added. (My computer can handle adventurer mode fine, but runs fortress mode at 17 fps atm, argh.) I don't want to be wangling time on a supercomputer to get my dorf fix...

Regarding tutorials: in-game tutorials with simplified situations would be a good idea to soften the learning curve. Otherwise, tutorials and help features would be better in a separate window, as with most Windows programs, so they don't get in the way and can be put in the background easily. (Not convenient if you run full-screen mode, admittedly...) Maybe someone could code a tutorial/help window which can also search and display pages from the wiki.

[Lord_Phoenix]

The only reason I use a graphic tileset right now is that I like the squared off view much better than the standard rectangular ascii view.

What I mean is, I like the distance up and down to be the same as left to right for a given number of tiles, rather than longer up and down than left to right, which makes square rooms (such as 3x3 tiles) rectangular rather than square.  Makes it much easier to design the fortress layout in my head and build it when it doesn't get all squished up in the making.

If anyone knows of a ascii tileset that does this, I'd appreciate it.

[Guilliman]

how long still? please don't tell me tomorrow