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[Armok]

Actualy, I'm more worried that with the new release the game will become to SIMPLE, and therefore attract more vermin like that Garry a wile ago, okay, maybe not, but actually I am selfish enoght to not WANT every leetin little bastard to find DF, so no need to make it simpler, actually, when people ask why I spend 5 hores a day of this forum I answerer that there are about 50 intlegent persons on this earth, and half of them is on this forum,  if you haven't noticed yet this post is just a mishmash of all the other posts in this tread, and this sentence is weary long, also, I wont even try to spell, because I can't, sorry for that.

That sentence is a demonstration of what we will have all over this forum if this game becomes simple.  :roll:

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by Pnx:
<STRONG>I'm not sure if the game will be that much more difficult in the NV (bout time we abbreviated that).
.</STRONG>

...Let's not. Anyone who's played Noctis would agree with me.

[Mechanoid]

   
COMPLEXITY != DIFFICULTY

WHY THE FUCK CAN'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!?
[responding to OP, not the above... tl;dr]

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Armok]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>   :roll:

[Aristharus]

I understand how the game can be intimidating to try and learn, but I have to say that I had no such problems the first time I played. It was mostly because of the gameplay vids Toady posted before the first release that I had watched. I pretty much knew what you should do first and tried to imitate the movie, and after a couple of tries it all felt familiar to me.

The game is in alpha state at the moment, and tutorials will be made before the game's complete. Even though it's getting more complicated, I believe that with good tutorials it won't be a problem to get to know the game the same way I did just watching the couple of movies Toady made. Of course it isn't a good thing to scare potential fans off now in this non-complete stage, but then again there's no point in making tutorials as long as there's going to be new features. At this point the wiki will probably help a lot of people that really want to learn the game.

If I'd stumble onto this game now, and just saw the screenshots and read the features list, I wouldn't give up until I learned the game. It's just that awesome. I don't think the people who'd like DF would be intimidated that easily after seeing even a bit of the game, or at least they'd surely check the game again after it's complete. I wouldn't see the learning curve as that big of a problem.

[THLawrence]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>
COMPLEXITY != DIFFICULTY

WHY THE FUCK CAN'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!?
[responding to OP, not the above... tl;dr]

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]</STRONG>

It may not make the game more difficult but it will mean that only the intellectual elite will be able to fully understand what is happening. I had to read most of the wiki before I finally understood how to play the game well. Most garrys won't bother to even look for help after they get they're fortress flooded after three hours of play and have to start over. Mean while the smart people will check to see if there is a wiki. Everyone knows nearly every program's tutorial or help section barely covers the basics on what button does what. This includes the current help section on DF. If Toady does implement a help section it would work best if it was modeled off the wiki. I only ever ask a question after having checked the wiki first and been unable to find an anwser.

[mickel]

There seems to me to be no limit to how complex games that people can understand. Me, I'm not an expert at Dwarf Fortress by any means, but I have managed to survive several decades. It didn't take me more than a couple of minutes of playing to grasp the interface, and the basic concepts came along nicely. Computer games have been a major part of my life for eleven years.

But I still can't get anywhere in "Hearts of Iron". The what does what with the whiggamawhat now? And where'd that army come from? How do I mine for coal? What was that thing and how did that just kill that other thing, and did any of those belong to me? What country am I playing even?

...and yet, some guys have managed to become so expert at that, that they can take over the world as Malta, even while severely handicapping themselves far beyond what is realistic.

I guess those people would play Dwarf Fortress with their left hand on the side while taking over the world in HoI.

They improved the interface a lot in Hearts of Iron II.

Oh, and those game forums are the only ones I've seen that can rival this in terms of maturity of the forum-goers. It goes beyond it even, but then that isn't a game anymore, it's a logistics simulation...   :eek:

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Yeh, it's been said already but I feel inclined to restate that much of the difficulty right now is overcoming the graphics\interface. More often than not, the frustrations\punishments are due to an alpha state rather than entrenching game depth.

Personally, my biggest fears of new version, other than a possible increase in computer taxation, is being frustrated visually by the z-axis. For example how easy it will be for me to envision paths through my fortress, or having to adjust z-level to follow a creature.

Edit: HoI 1 is better than two I think. Improved interface = dumbed down research tree, stuff like that.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Funkadelic Jive Turkey ]

[Veroule]

I pretty much only skimmed this topic, and unequivocably believe that the concern that started it is totally unfounded.

All the screen shots, movies, and other things in devlopment notes for the new version point to solid improvements in both the interface and simulated realism of things.

The interface is currently the largest learning curve in my opinion.  In some ways it will always be, because we have to think "where was that option again.  I just saw it a moment ago!  I need that option right now!!"  Adding more complexity to the game play is going to add more options and is going to further that part of the curve.  I also agree with Toady's statement that it would be a waste of his time to perfect the interface while so many of its interactions will change.

Adding more options also is not necessary bad for players.  The current version of DF provides many different ways to see to dwarves needs for food and drink.  We hotly debate the 'best' way to do it, but don't complain that so many methods are available.  What we complain about is that beds are required and there is only one way to meet that need.  In this regard more options makes for a more enjoyable playing experience.

The added realism in areas of liquids and such actually makes things easier.  From birth we are surrounded by a world and learn its rules.  When the game items with the same name behave in the same fashion it makes sense.  It fits our existing knowledge of the world and is already learned.  We don't have to think about it at all.  Everytime a natural component of the game world behaves exactly like a natural component of our world we don't have to learn a single thing.  Of course if all game compoents behaved the same we wouldn't have a game.

A truly scary thought for everyone...take the time to think about how your thinks.

[Zemat]

I'm curious. Does anyone has managed to build an utopic fortress with +80 dorfs where anyone gets to get at least a room (except for soldiers assigned to barracks) and a bed, no dwarf has to eat over food stockpiles, and no dwarf goes around in rags (with the justifiable exception of mad or incarcerated peps)?

Because my only problem I have with the game is that the current level of micromanagement, although fun, it's unsustainable with a big enough of a fort and there's little abstraction in the game to deal with petite stuff at a large scale. There's a point when it becomes bothersome to continue dealing with repetitive stuff like assigning specific jobs like cooking and creating consumables items, when you have also to deal with the economy, mass starvation, sieges and pestering nobles.

[TheSpaceMan]

What more options will add as well is not simply more new things that you have to do. Rather diffrent ways to do the samethings. Diffrent ways to get food. You don't have to understand or even know them all you learn a way that works then later adapt and try new ways. I don't know how to make soap, i hardly make any cloths. Still i manage to survive for many years as a n00b.

What you need to know to play the game is
1. "how do i navigate the menus"
2. "how do i dig"
3. "how do i build"
4. "how do i get food"

if you complete those, you will eventualy learn how to make all there is to make.

Some people in my class have gotten into the game and how it works in a day. The rest is as it should be. Trial and error and no quicksave/load

[Vodalian]

quote:Originally posted by THLawrence:
<STRONG>

It may not make the game more difficult but it will mean that only the intellectual elite will be able to fully understand what is happening. I had to read most of the wiki before I finally understood how to play the game well. Most garrys won't bother to even look for help after they get they're fortress flooded after three hours of play and have to start over. Mean while the smart people will check to see if there is a wiki. Everyone knows nearly every program's tutorial or help section barely covers the basics on what button does what. This includes the current help section on DF. If Toady does implement a help section it would work best if it was modeled off the wiki. I only ever ask a question after having checked the wiki first and been unable to find an anwser.</STRONG>

Intelligent people needs a game to play too ya know..   Most games these days are dumbed down so bad that it's almost insulting.. What makes these text games fun is the complexity of the gameplay instead of pretty colors which seems to lure most people.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Vodalian ]

[Keizo]

My two cents:

Yup, this game absolutely requires the wiki to learn to play as it is. Sure, losing is fun, but losing because of not knowing what the hell to do at all isn't. Losing after a valiant attempt is what's fun. I actually think that "losing is fun" slogan should be dumped because if a newbie happens to lose because of confusion, he'll feel TRULY left out if he didn't have fun while losing.

"Wait. THAT was supposed to be fun? That was just f***ing confusing. I don't get it, screw it I'm gonna go play more WoW."

And no, it's not stupid people who fail to enjoy this game. Not everyone likes god-games, not everyone likes dwarves, and not everyone can handle ascii graphics. I happen to know lots of people who fall into one of those categories, and yet love other "hard-to-get" games, such as roguelikes like Nethack (*****PROTIP: COMPLETELY GRAPHICAL OPTION*****), or Uplink, etc., and none of them are stupid. So please stop thinking we're all intelligent masterminds for liking this game, it bothers me.

[THLawrence]

To Mickel

Hurray, I understand HOI very well. Few things are as fun as unleashing steel blitzkrieg upon the Soviet Union when they outnumber you three to one. I found the interface in the second to be more complicated not less.

And if you really want complicated try try Vicky, or Ricky. Think steel production is hard? Wait until you want artillery.

To make artillery you need sulfur, coal and iron. The harvest of said resources requires labor assigned. The intermittent steps each require a factory which must be built and labor assigned. There are 4 intermittent steps. Demand for each of these products is very high and they are very scarce so it's hard to buy any of them including the resources. Trained labor is in short supply. And all of this while balancing a budget and 20 other intertwining economic branches. I consider the complexity of DF a reprieve from that economic mayhem.

[EDIT]I forgot to mention diplomacy, politics, military, militancy and population cash flow. There are even more.[/EDIT]

But that forum is how I found out about DF. Surprised there aren't more Paradoxians here. Scratch that found one. They enjoy a good strategy game while not caring about graphics.

Anyway I never said that smart people are guaranteed to like this game, they will just understand it better.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: THLawrence ]

[Tommy2U]

I loved Paradox games and spent a lot of time playing them, although their depth, number of options and faithfulness to historical detail meant that they were more or less playable with third or fifth patch a year after the release.
Victoria was too much for me, my country would invariably go bankrupt and be left behind the others. And there was little you could do if you weren't a great power, as you pretty much had to stick to historical alliances.
HoI 1 and 2 was fun, though air force and navy were not particularly realistically modelled (especially if you've played War in the Pacific or War Plan Orange).
Crusader Kings was my favourite, with installing your family as rulers all over Europe, crusades, intrigues, bride hunting and stuff. I might give the expansion a try once my new notebook is delivered.