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[Devastator]

I really want to know where you live, Sappho.  ;-)

I've played games harder to learn than Dwarf Fortess.  Since DF is single-player, there is no need to simplify the game to make it easier for additional players to learn.  Newcomers have no effect on the quality of the game.  I don't see why Toady should simplify the game simply to attract new players; The good publicity and reviews are bringing in more people quickly enough.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Devastator ]

[Goran]

More features = fun.
More repetitive micromanagement = strain/stress.

Basically new features are great as long as they do not become a burden. Balancing that out is a very thin line. Just think of the wonders enhancements to the AI could do. Maybe even give us all those sweet lies Bethsoft promised prior to the release of Oblivion and their fabulous Radiant AI(a.k.a. sit and stare at wall for hours)

[Nukeitall]

quote:Originally posted by Goran:
<STRONG>More features = fun.
More repetitive micromanagement = strain/stress.

Basically new features are great as long as they do not become a burden. Balancing that out is a very thin line. Just think of the wonders enhancements to the AI could do. Maybe even give us all those sweet lies Bethsoft promised prior to the release of Oblivion and their fabulous Radiant AI(a.k.a. sit and stare at wall for hours)</STRONG>

Funny story. The AI is actually for the most part disabled or dormant.

If you have some mods that wake it up, crazy stuff happens. I wish I had some of the posts describing the hilarity.

[Sappho]

quote:Originally posted by Devastator:
<STRONG>I really want to know where you live, Sappho.  ;-)
</STRONG>

The USA, I'm afraid.  Our pennies now cost something like 1.7 cents each to make because of the value of the metal they are made from.  There was a news article on it somewhere a short while ago, I'm sure you could find it if you Google it, it's rather amusing actually.

[greatleapforward]

Well, as a great philosopher once said: "Too much of something is bad enough, but something's coming over me to make me wonder; too much of nothing is just as tough.". Dwarf Fortress should aim to be a game that will make a Star Fleet Battles player cry, and we're a long way off that. Seriously, the game is designed so that you learn how to play it whilst playing it - you don't need to understand exactly how all of its aspects function to get started.

[Zemat]

I to, believe that the current version is more complex and difficult to learn compared to the next ones since a lot of the nags and annoying stuff that we currently have to deal with has been or will be removed. Most of those nags are the result or poor initial gameplay designs that toady acknowledges shouldn't be there but are there mostly as placeholders for what eventually will be the final gameplay elements. The most obvious ones are the unintuitive interface and controls which need a serious overhaul. Once it's done the game will get easier to learn without the need to reduce the complexity or the reach of the game.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

quote:Originally posted by Vodalian:
<STRONG>This need for simplicity is what has been destroying games lately.</STRONG>

And then they say I'm insane for not worshiping Shigeru Miyamoto...

[Lightning4]

I think the complexity is one of the game's strong suits. That and elephants.
It's not overly complex, but enough so that it might be a little harsh getting into it. But once you conquer it, you have a sense of accomplisment and you have the knowledge to create truly impressive accomplishments like Copperblazes or such.

I think the bigger problem is people don't apply themselves enough to learn
Plus, it seems like ASCII games always seem indimidating. I know it seemed indimidating my first time around.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Greiger]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>So far the only "frustratingly arcane" game I've encountered was Battlecruiser Millenium. Without a printed manual and a listing of all keys and acronyms, it's altogether impossible to do anything but steer the ship around and shoot stuff - if you have a joystick.
</STRONG>

I played that, got pretty far too after figuring everything out.  My big gripe about that is that everything was real time...took an hour to travel roughly 3 inches on the map.  And if you managed to play long enough you got stuck playing for 8 hours doing nothing because all yer bridge op officers were sleeping.  
It had a time compress, but it messed the AI up something awful, caused bugs, and required you to turn cheats on to use it.  And that was 'called' a finished product.  Would have been great, if it wasn't so badly done.

Anyway, back on topic, I like complex games.  But the game does need some kind of tutorial or even just something pointing to the wiki, maybe in the help files.  Of course then the wiki may need a 'mostly spoiler free' section.

Edited out some typos

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Greiger ]

[Nukeitall]

I will openly admit, for the record, that I would have been too flabbergasted to continue without the wiki.

I think. Then again once I really started to get into the mountain most of the issues burned off as the settlement was able to function reasonably.

[Pnx]

I'm not sure if the game will be that much more difficult in the NV (bout time we abbreviated that).
If anything I think it might get easier. The primary thing I'm concerned about is that a lot of the wiki information will be outdated so when we first get the NV it will be rather tough for us players of the old version.

[Bluefire]

I'm not saying that I tremble at the thought of the new version, but I do really hope the new complexity won't mess it up, and I do think the game is a little too frustrating as it is right now. Good reviews and stuff are nice, but they aren't worth much if the game scares the newbies.
Anyone here knows the game X2 or X3? It's a wonderful example of a complex game done just right. Sure, it will probably scare you if you are not willing to think and try, but it's a game with limitless options and a lot of complexity, just like DF.
I'm only saying that it should be made a bit more simple to manage and learn. Perhaps the new version will do just that, especially with so many annoyences removed; I don't know. I do know that in order for a game to be truly successful, even if it's not made for profit, it should be made accessible to a relatively large audience, and DF has a limited one for now.

[Keiseth]

Yeah; starting the game was exceptionally intimidating but very rewarding. I think, however, it would be fairly simple to make a good tutorial; time, hunger and such would be slowed down, of course, because in a tutorial the player shouldn't rush and worry. Yet.

"Welcome to Dwarf Fortress! These are your dwarves..." "Let's start by mining some part of the mountain a little." "Now how about we take one of the stones that came from the mountain and build a Mason's Workshop?" "Why don't you try to make a door with that other stone?" "To cut down a tree..."

All the way to... "Now you understand how to mine. You can also mine upwards and downwards, however, like so:"

By doing a series of simple actions the player could reliably remember how to do them again. Ideally if the Tutorial is of a fair length, the player should be able to do parts at a time. I think with a detailed tutorial a lot of the initial challenge and frustration would be eliminated; but you would still require a good deal of patience.

EDIT: In addition, a combat tutorial is practically required. Rather then throwing kobolds at the newbie-tutorial fortress, I think you should be given a partial fortress that's already in battle, to practice. Despite the advice you'll probably get clobbered once; but the press of a button and everything is reset. Hmm, if I station a soldier here... pull that switch, and so on.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Keiseth ]

[DrMorbly]

I am not worried about it being too complex because we are not required to take advantage of every feature.  If I can't handle the pressure, I can have a very simple fortress.  I can just have a hallway with traps the whole way in. I don't have to goto other z levels.

I encourage Toady to put TOO much in.  That way, there will be endless challenges for those who WANT to try to make their fortress more complex, dig deeper, live in more challenging climates, etc.

I am sure that if one so desired, they would never have to play in such a way that was too complex for him or her.  Infact, I believe that it tends to balance in such a way anyway.

[Krash]

greatleapforward said:

quote: you don't need to understand exactly how all of its aspects function to get started.

This is one of the aspects I already like with DF and hope will become better as the games keeps improving.  To not burden beginners too hard, much of the fancy stuff should not be necessary to run a successful fortress.  I believe someone mentioned glassmaking as such a feature.

That said, one thing that worries me is the AI.

DF is already more complex than many other games when it comes to interaction and problem solving possibilities.  Lets say I build a complex series of defences to my fortress, lava, traps, pits, all the fancy stuff that's necessary to give those pesky greenskins a warm (scalding) welcome.  

How do they deal with it?

How can they get around my nasty little surprises efficiently, without being omniscent (This would make traps pretty useless)?  Of course, they should make mistakes and all, but how will they react the next time they visit me and know the locations of some of my defences?  How will they adapt to problematic situations, like a chasm and no way to pass (if I, say, retracted a bridge).  And how can the AI handle the sieges in such a way that its weaknesses, it's behavioral patterns can't be exploited too easily?

I'm no programmer, so I don't really know much about AI.  But something tells me that making goblins identify patterns is harder than it looks.  That huge moat they can go down into, suspiciously devoid of defences; is it a flood trap?  Should they find another, longer way around?  How do they know?

Heck, one thing is sure.  It isn't easy to be a goblin in Dwarf Fortress.  And it's going to be even harder with a z-axis.