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[Aargh]

Hi all,

With the new release coming ever closer, there's been something that has been hanging in the back of my mind all this time.

The new release adds loads of new options. The Z-axis itself is a huge new feature, and that's just one of the many additions. Since the learning curve of the current version is already very steep compared to almost any other game, it's logical to assume that the curve will only get steeper as there are more possibilities to keep in mind while playing, and everything just gets a little more complex every time. Then there's the huge list of possible future features, and I've often seen topics about players requesting features that would complicate the game further and further.

Now for most of us here who already have a firm grasp of the basics (and more) of the game that won't be a problem. More likely it'll even add new challenges to those who have already mastered every aspect of the current version. The voice on the forums here is of course weighed towards that group; almost all people here, myself included, know how to play the game and are eagerly awaiting the possibilities offered in the next version.

But I remember when I first played Dwarf Fortress, and I'm sure many of you have had the same experience; it's nothing short of intimidating. Only with a lot of help from help files and wiki pages can the average player even begin to play the game with the smallest measure of success. As the learning curve gets steeper, I believe more potential players will get scared off at first sight.

So the question is; how much is too much? Where's the line between realism and featuritis? Between endless possibilities and freedom on one side and an overbloated overcomplicated game on the other?

[EDIT] Fixed some typos

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Aargh ]

[Kayla]

Hey Aargh.

I was having these EXACT sentiments and thoughts about two weeks back, when some of the forum posts were debating about cave-in codes and such, and how it should be simulated.  

Personally, I've always liked the 7 x 7 rule, (Even if I forgot about it a large amount of the time). Anyways...

The easiest answer to your question would most likely be 'Wherever Toady says the line is at.'  As for my look onto it, I think anyone with the nerve and willpower to be willing to learn and research this game, whether new or experienced, deserves a pat on the back, as it is. The update will only further that.

As that is, most people will fall under two categories (although I do hate generalizing). The first type is the type that sees the screenshots, and instantly hates Dwarf Fortress for its graphics. Also within this type are those who download it, find the interface convulting, and quit at the first edge of defeat.  The second type are the ones we will be most likely to find, they will come to the forums, browse the wiki, and like us all, become experts sooner or later.

[Bluefire]

I don't know, but DF is already about to trip over that line. I'm an experienced player, and I already fear that the next version will drown me like when I started playing, and I'm a very very conservatives player, who only builds what's needed to run an efficent fort; no crazy Copperblazes stuff. Sooner or later The Great Toady will have to include a simple tutorial in the game, because even this version is frustrating for the begginer.

[I3erent]

Why try to stop them from doing what we all have wanted all our lives: a good game.

If you want simple go play pong.

imho

[Vodalian]

This need for simplicity is what has been destroying games lately.

[BDR]

I doubt he's saying that; what I see is the wonder of when things will be *too* complex.  Really simple games like Pong may not have much meat to keep you playing for hours on end, but at least you can get them without studying for hours on end.  The games that are too complex for their own good can make it so you're forced to read and re-read the manual just to make it a few steps forward in terms of progress, only to find yourself bogged down again solely because you can't hold all the rules in your head.  Everyone's line of comfort in this regard is different, but I'm pretty sure that between the crime of not being replayable enough and being uncompletably difficult/unplayably complex/not quite rewarding enough, I'm fairly sure most game makers would pick the former if they could help it.

[Vengeful Donut]

The wiki will grow. It's what it's for, no?
Also, many of the updates I've noticed are going to make things simpler and work more smoothly instead of complicating it. Like appointing nobles. Or building bridges.
A lot of the complexity we do have is something that you dont really have to dive into. Do you really need glassmaking, metalsmithing, and dying for a successful fortress?
This game has an appeal similar to the roller coaster tycoon - you make something you think will work well, see it destroy itself, then try to make something better.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Vengeful Donut ]

[Jonathan S. Fox]

There are several future core items to make the game easier to play:

Core19, TUTORIALS, (Future): Set up small tutorial files that you can load up. These would have text instructions and little activities for you to do so you can learn how to play more easily.

Core22, ADVISORS, (Future): Either some kind of abstract advisors, or the actual dwarves that are living there. They can look over the state of the fortress and come up with some suggestions to help you survive and advance up the noble chain.

Core50, TILESET SUPPORT, (Future): Allow graphical tiles to be used for all game objects.

Core52, INTERFACE OVERHAUL, (Future): A coherent interface, additional options and mouse support.

[Whiskey_Ninja]

Being someone who has only been playing DF for about a month, I understand your concerns for making the game accessible.

That being said, I do believe the point has been hit well, that if someone isn't willing to cope with the graphics, and interface, then the overall complexity of the game is the least of their worries.

For the moment, I'm not concerned about new people being turned away by an overabundance of features. If it ever truly became an issue, it's possible to just download older versions, or for Toady to implement flags that only allow certain world rules to take place (so someone could play a comparatively 'simple' fortress akin to this version, even in future versions).

[Silveron]

As complex as the game is and will become... the phrase "Realistically Fun" seems to be one of Toady's guiding tennants. Judging from the "No Siege" init option Toady isn't into forcing anyone to play the game in just one way either but prefers to let us delve as deeply as we dare. Im fairly sure our devoted modding community will have a few init file tweaks and pointers to help our newer brothers and sisters adjust. Plus, remember how helpful most people are in the bay12 IRC room. I think everyone will manage just fine after a few struggles. Granted the Z release is going to take away the Guarenteed Paths to success we're accustomed to. No more just dig to the river/chasm/magma. We will have to react on the spot. No more safe bets... but a lot more freedom and fun.

I for one am looking forward to the challenges.

Relax... fear only the -3.

[Kjoery]

In terms of Z-axis adding more difficulty to the game, I doubt it will change much unless you *want* it to; if you want to, you could build a 3-d fortress, or you could do what we did when learning the game, and just build a 2-d one.

That just being one example, a lot of the features arn't forcing the player to use them (grates, water pressure, etc.), they just allow the player to use them if he/she so wishes; I have no doubt you could still build a simple, pre-river fortress with no significant change in difficulty.

EDIT: Whoops, this is almost what Silveron said. Sorry about that.

[ October 23, 2007: Message edited by: Kjoery ]

[Nukeitall]

quote:Originally posted by Vodalian:
<STRONG>This need for simplicity is what has been destroying games lately.</STRONG>

While I agree, the game should not be so intricate and confusing as to scare off newcomers.

Complex, yes. Difficult? maybe. Intimidating? no. Frustratingly arcane? big no.

[Sowelu]

I don't actually believe that the new update will make the game harder.

Remember trying to figure out irrigation for the first time?  The current-version flood code is INSANE.  Permafloods are ridiculous for a newbie to deal with.  Even flooding a single room requiring two floodgates is counterintuitive.  Channels are ridiculous.  New version doesn't seem to have this problem...I'm still hoping that the new code is easier to learn.

Farming has more documentation built in: Herbs now tell you what they're for.

No more grabbing stone from across the fort whenever you build something:  That's less frustrating.

Being able to turn the economy off?  Whee!

Anyway, I'm not convinced the new version will necessarily be harder.  It -could- be, but it certainly has new features to make up for it.

[Sappho]

The more difficult a game is, the more intelligent and mature the players tend to be.  I, for one, would flee this forum like it was on fire if the game were made much easier and all the netspeaking twelve-year-olds invaded.  I like the complexity of this game; I think it actually makes us smarter, having to overcome complex situations, and the new version will do that even more so.

There are enough easy, simple games out there already.  A game's playerbase is a huge factor to me in whether I continue to play it; even though the game was great, I couldn't stand RPGWO because the players were a bunch of immature little assholes.  The community here is intelligent, friendly, and helpful, and I think it's about time we had a game that required patience and intelligence to understand and master.

So there's my two cents.  And since the metal in pennies is now worth more than one cent, my contribution is secretly worth even more than it seems!

[Sean Mirrsen]

So far the only "frustratingly arcane" game I've encountered was Battlecruiser Millenium. Without a printed manual and a listing of all keys and acronyms, it's altogether impossible to do anything but steer the ship around and shoot stuff - if you have a joystick.
Dwarf Fortress has been, to me, moderately incomprehensible. For one, I've figured out food almost instantly, so I've never really hit starvation. I don't suppose that the new version will be altogether more complicated, as little as a comprehensive list of available controls is already enough to feel moderately "in control".