Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Revanchist]

I thought it would be better if the above ground trees would behave like real trees, as in typically tall and thin, while cavern fungi would grow to 3 z-levels at most, but be very wide. I'd assume also that good/evil make the trees grow more quickly, and neutral doesn't affect the growth rate. Perhapsevil regions could drop infected wood also, which contaminates other wood in close proximity? Or not... but it would be a good use for high level carpenters.
I'm also in favor of a climbing system, be it a skill or a tag. Maybe a [CLIMBER:x] where x is a 0 (no climb) and it goes up from there, but I digress...

[King Mir]

I don't think anything but climate and tree type should effect tree growth.

Having underground trees be wide at the base could be a problem because that means there's more than one place to chop it down. Whereas a normal tree has a particular tile that a dwarf would stand next to and chop down. Tree trunks vary in thickness, but I don't think any trees grow wide enough often enough to really need the lowest level to be more than one tile.

[Tov01]

An idea I had for a while was for trees to drop a single tree object, which would then be processed to produce x amount of wood, depending on the size of the tree. How it is processed depends on how much complexity Toady wants, with the simplest being a single job at the carpentry station, to having to cut the tree into planks at a sawmill, with appropriate bi-products (sawdust and branches and leaves for firewood). Any system would also benefit from the ability to burn trees whole into charcoal or ash at the wood furnace.


I also like the idea of roots. I can see the roots of big trees getting in the way of mining just below the surface, and being able to dig up roots for wood (although most likely they would only be good for firewood, and maybe small crafts).

[Manveru Taurënér]

The biggest issue with multi-tile trees as I see it is coming up with a good and intuitive way to represent them in ascii that doesn't completely fry the brain of any new player when they first take a look at them. I don't even play DF without tilesets though so not sure if I have anything to add there though.

It all also depends a huge amount on how far Toady wants to stretch towards realism as far as trees and forests go. My knowledge on this comes from me studying biology, ecology to be specific. Basically, I propose 2 different growth patterns for most trees depending on if it's in a forest/jungle biome or a more open one such as a grassland. Trees that grow in the open have free access to sunlight, and thus don't have to put much energy into growing taller, but instead grow more in width and spread its branches to the sides to reach in order to maximize the sunlight it can get.

Example of free growing Oak tree:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Example of free growing Pine tree:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A tree growing in a forest on the other hand has to compete over the available light with the other nearby trees, and as such put more energy into growing taller (trunk and branches being much thinner as a result), trying to reach above its competitors to snatch as much of the available sunlight as possible.

Example of forest growing Oak tree:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Example of free growing Pine tree (the trees around having been felled):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is that I think these 2 classes should be represented in the design of multi-tile trees. Reality is ofc not quite as clear as this and one can find trees in all shapes on the scale between these extremes, but this should be a sufficient approximation for DF.

As for the actual trees, I assume a tile being 2*2*3 (?) meters as stated by Toady for current physics calculations. They'd all start with the base trunk ofc, which really shouldn't ever need to be more than 1 tile other than for "giant" trees for elven forest retreats. It'd also be suitable to not have any of the canopy for the first z-level for most trees to keep things relatively clean). In a forest you'd then have x amount of z-levels of mostly trunk up to the actual canopy which would spread 1 tile out in each direction ish in a thick forest, creating a relatively compact forest canopy. What tiles to use for this I can't really say, any ideas? A freegrowing tree on the other hand would have its canopy start on the second z-level, spreading 2 tiles out in all directions (save some variation to keep it from being too uniform) and span maybe 2-3 z-levels up depending on the tree and its age. Possibly using some other tiles to represent thicker branches, also indicating you could easily climb these whenever climbing becomes a factor. Also, the current tree tiles could be used to indicate younger trees, ie the ones not yet spanning more than 1 z-lvl but that' still give some minor amount of wood if cut.

Speaking of woodcutting, I propose that when you fell a tree, a direction without any constructiones etc obstructing would be "chosen" by  the dwarves cutting it, them trying to make sure it falls in that direction, and making them take care not to step into that area as its falling. Of course, unskilled woodcutters could fail with this, leading to Fun to be had. As it hits the ground, a small cave-inesque effect would occur. On the ground you'd now have a tree object of some sort of suitable length, which the woodcutters could then chop up on the spot into smaller more manageable logs to carry into the fort (lenght and width factoring into how much wood you get out of it). These changes would probably lead to getting much more wood out of 1 tree, which I however consider a good thing. Tree growth should be slowed to more realistic figures and this would mostly just balance itself out. It'd also prove a more interesting challenge to clearcut a forest with improved felling mechanics. Overall you'd get the same amount of wood for the time spent (unless tweaking is needed), just that there'd be more work involved per tree.

Comments? ^^

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think savage forests should also have bigger, wider trees. Think of California's redwood forests and the like as real-world savage biomes. Their trunks are 30 feet across, meaning around 3 tiles wide at the measurements quoted. (IIRC, tiles were estimated at 2*2*3 meters, making redwoods 4-5 tiles across. And the biggest ones could probably be bigger...) And just imagine if the elves settled in a savage forest... you could fit a small fortress in there. If you killed the elves first.

[King Mir]

Good points on the tree shapes.

But I actually think the trickiest part is tree cutting. You can't do a simple cave in, because the tree must fall sideways. Nor can you use the current system for projectile motion because the cut tree is a multi-tile object.

There are a number of possible solutions:
1)Don't bother with falling, just make the tree create a neat stack of logs when cut down in the trunk tile.
2)Teleport logs onto the ground tile they should fall on, in a tree pattern beside the trunk location, possibly at the top of the tile, and with some bestowed momentum so they do damage. This has some complications if the ground is not flat, or if there is an overhang near the tree.
3)Teleport logs straight down to the ground, with no possibility of harm, but the logs aren't all in one tile.
4)Turn the tree tiles into logs with an appropriate amount of sideways momentum. Each tile behaves as a separate log.
5)Create a framework for multi-tile structures and give a felled tree horizontal initial velocity. Probably, but not necessarily, make tree trunks behave like constructions on impact. This would still not account for the tree tipping, instead each level is effectively pushed sideways.
6)Create special physics for falling trees including tipping. Fallen trees are their own terrain objects, which must be cut into logs, and which may lie on a slope if one is present in the fall zone. Trees surrounded by natural scaffolding on all sides would not fall, instead turn into dead fallen tree tiles where they are. Trees in nature would either grow far enough apart that they never block each other's fall, or be damaged by falling trees. Constructed scaffolding may either break or behave like natural scaffolding.
7)Create special physics for falling trees including tipping. Then create logs on the fall zone. In this case, trees in scaffolding turn into logs and drop straight down.
8)Make trees into multi-tile single entities, like wagons. A falling tree would have a trajectory, but unlike current projectiles, it would impact multiple tiles at once. On impact, the tree would either become a non-haulable dead tree, or a bunch of logs.
9)Make trees into multi-tile creatures only during the fall. At other times it behaves like terrain.

That's hopefully exhaustive, but there may be other options I didn't think of.

I'm not sure which of these is best. Making this list made me realize that tree branches should probably be treated like constructions, not natural tiles.

EDIT: added two more possibilities.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Knowing Toady's style, 5 seems the most probable. He's probably also take the opportunity to revamp cavein behavior...

Probably, large tree trunks could use the same tiles as smooth walls...but what about branches and leaves?

[Manveru Taurënér]

I think savage forests should also have bigger, wider trees. Think of California's redwood forests and the like as real-world savage biomes. Their trunks are 30 feet across, meaning around 3 tiles wide at the measurements quoted. (IIRC, tiles were estimated at 2*2*3 meters, making redwoods 4-5 tiles across. And the biggest ones could probably be bigger...) And just imagine if the elves settled in a savage forest... you could fit a small fortress in there. If you killed the elves first.

Ah yeah, was probably 2*2*3 now that I think about it. Would probably be easier still to fit most of common tree species as having 1 tile trunks, even if a few of the biggest specimens might exceed that slightly IRL. Then we'd have stuff similar to the redwood ones in size for the elves. No idea really what type of settlements they'd have though, lots of different types of fantasy elven tree dwellings to take inspiration from, whether they live inside the trees, in treehouses attached to the trunks or up in the canopies

And Mir, I really don't think not having trees falling is an option. That's just too much Fun to pass up, so some kind of falling tree mechanic with damage when landing is a must. How to do that best is up to Toady to solve though I guess ^^

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think that, at least in savage biomes, there should be able to be trees as big as the biggest of RL trees without elven interference. Just a personal opinion.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I think that, at least in savage biomes, there should be able to be trees as big as the biggest of RL trees without elven interference. Just a personal opinion.

I agree. Or possibly if it'd be better to tie that to the sphere-lands whenever that gets revamped as well.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think that, at least in savage biomes, there should be able to be trees as big as the biggest of RL trees without elven interference. Just a personal opinion.

I agree. Or possibly if it'd be better to tie that to the sphere-lands whenever that gets revamped as well.

That would mean that, assuming minecart tile measurements are used for trees, the biggest trees in non-elf-affected areas would probably be around 5 tiles across, and dozens of tiles tall. (25-20 is multiple dozens.)
How much would elves affect normal trees (1-tile trunks, maybe 4-6 tiles tall by my calculations (if trees average around 50 feet or 15 meters in normal forests/areas) or ginormous trees (4-5 tiles trunks, dozens of s-levels tall)? And how big should branches be?

[King Mir]

Knowing Toady's style, 5 seems the most probable. He's probably also take the opportunity to revamp cavein behavior...

Problem is, trees tip. They don't slide sideways. Boats, which are the prime need for multi-tile structures, don't really need to be able to capsize. But the next level up of a tree sliding sideways isn't how trees behave. So it's not a good solution. Option 4 is more realistic in some ways because of that.

Probably, large tree trunks could use the same tiles as smooth walls...but what about branches and leaves?

They could probably just use the spade and club suit tiles. A dense forest could look like a uniform canopy.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Toady seems to like making frameworks for future expansion, then promptly diving into such future expansion, which leads to more expansion, etc, before stopping himself from finishing the game this update.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I think that, at least in savage biomes, there should be able to be trees as big as the biggest of RL trees without elven interference. Just a personal opinion.

I agree. Or possibly if it'd be better to tie that to the sphere-lands whenever that gets revamped as well.

That would mean that, assuming minecart tile measurements are used for trees, the biggest trees in non-elf-affected areas would probably be around 5 tiles across, and dozens of tiles tall. (25-20 is multiple dozens.)
How much would elves affect normal trees (1-tile trunks, maybe 4-6 tiles tall by my calculations (if trees average around 50 feet or 15 meters in normal forests/areas) or ginormous trees (4-5 tiles trunks, dozens of s-levels tall)? And how big should branches be?

Thinking over that a bit, it'd probably be easier to just give the elves a special kind of tree they grow for their retreats (featherwood mayhap?) than to try and set up rules for modifying existing ones into fitting certain criteria. That's not to say they wouldn't have any effect on the rest of the flora as well of course, but guess that's more of a flavour thing :>

Branches for such giant trees I guess would be a tile on their own in width after quickly perusing some images of redwoods. Those trees sure are massive. Giant trees should still be fairly rare imo though outside of elven settlements.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think that, at least in savage biomes, there should be able to be trees as big as the biggest of RL trees without elven interference. Just a personal opinion.

I agree. Or possibly if it'd be better to tie that to the sphere-lands whenever that gets revamped as well.

That would mean that, assuming minecart tile measurements are used for trees, the biggest trees in non-elf-affected areas would probably be around 5 tiles across, and dozens of tiles tall. (25-20 is multiple dozens.)
How much would elves affect normal trees (1-tile trunks, maybe 4-6 tiles tall by my calculations (if trees average around 50 feet or 15 meters in normal forests/areas) or ginormous trees (4-5 tiles trunks, dozens of s-levels tall)? And how big should branches be?

Thinking over that a bit, it'd probably be easier to just give the elves a special kind of tree they grow for their retreats (featherwood mayhap?) than to try and set up rules for modifying existing ones into fitting certain criteria. That's not to say they wouldn't have any effect on the rest of the flora as well of course, but guess that's more of a flavour thing :>

Why not just have elves (or creatures in forest retreats, rather) increase the size and number of plants?

Branches for such giant trees I guess would be a tile on their own in width after quickly perusing some images of redwoods. Those trees sure are massive. Giant trees should still be fairly rare imo though outside of elven settlements.

Makes sense...except that, since RL redwoods required no elven magic to reach their size, at least some 100% natural trees, at least in savage forests, should reach such massive proportions.