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[Neonivek]

What? its not about money, its about creative freedom. they can get hired in an instant developing for any publisher, making exactly the same game they are trying to kickstart here, but without the freedom.

Now THAT is also a good point as well. Kickstarter funding gives them a lot more freedom over what they want to do then a producer.

It allows them to develop games for the sake of creative energy or the best game as possible and less about profit.

I actually sort of like the collection of opposing good points. I REALLY hope there is no flame war.

[Microcline]

You know, whenever I've seen a Kickstarter thread I've told myself there's only three developers I'd seriously consider pledging for: Tarn Adams, Gabe Newell, and Chris Avellone.  As Tarn Adams is fairly happy with his situation and at this point Valve must have a treasure vault suitable for Scrooge McDuck, I've been waiting for the time when Obsidian would resort to this.

I do think Mullet Master has a point.

There is a point where you feel like Kickstarter is just being used so they don't have responsibilities to publishers and producers.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  There has never been a company as consistently fucked over by publishers as Obsidian (Troika comes very close though).  They've had schedules slashed for hasty Christmas releases (in the case of KotoRII they offered to make a free patch on their own time but were denied permission).  Even Bethesda, who were relatively good screwed them out of a lot of money for a very successful game leaving them on the edge of bankruptcy.  Kickstarter tended to get mentioned a lot because of how dire their financial situation is.  I'd rather bet my money on Chris Avellone than let another good company be lobotomized after a sale to EA.  While I have my doubts about Kickstarter, it's certainly more efficient for both the consumer and the developer than buying a pre-order the current publisher-dominated industry.

[Mullet Master]

What? its not about money, its about creative freedom. they can get hired in an instant developing for any publisher, making exactly the same game they are trying to kickstart here, but without the freedom.

Now THAT is also a good point as well. Kickstarter funding gives them a lot more freedom over what they want to do then a producer.

It allows them to develop games for the sake of creative energy or the best game as possible and less about profit.

I actually sort of like the collection of opposing good points. I REALLY hope there is no flame war.

If it was really about the all-mighty freedom, they would not have a Kickstarter at all.
Instead of being beholden to a publisher, they are now beholden to approximately 25,500 people who have had benefits guaranteed - digital copies of the game, etc.
Also, they have willingly gave up some creative freedom in return for cash. Read the gifts for above $500 - Design an NPC, Design a Bar, etc. There could be 200 NPCs in the game designed by random people off the internet!

[Digital Hellhound]

Unless eeeeverybody pledges 10k, which doesn't have a limit. Hehe.

Pray tell, what should have they done for greater creative freedom? They need to get money from somewhere.

[Neonivek]

You say that like it's a bad thing

I am developing an oppinion proper. I have thought of it as a good thing and a bad thing.

Unless eeeeverybody pledges 10k, which doesn't have a limit

There are REALLY lazy ways out of it. Even if they get 10,000 10k pledges... hmmm actually..

That would cause "Overfunding".

I wonder if there is a Kickstarter project that has been "Overfunded"

[Digital Hellhound]

What do you mean by overfunding? Many projects get more than their goal. Admittedly 10,000 times the 10k pledge would be... quite something else.

Also ohgod the pledged amount is already 341,722$.

[Mullet Master]

Obsidian Entertainment is not a publicly traded company. Nobody knows what's on the balance sheet, how much debt they are in, etc. Yes, several members of Obsidian are saying they got screwed over by Bethesda, and yes, they did lay people off, but there may be other causes of that. You don't need 200 people on staff to make an isometric RPG in today's world, but you do probably need 200 people to make a massive game like New Vegas. Fallout 1 probably had 30 full time people working on it, and that was before the day of Unity/Source et al.

But, let's assume that Obsidian really is broke and the layoffs were not just a result of moving to the correct size after finishing a game. A loan payment on 1.25 million, at 10%, for 7 years ( a normal commercial term), is about $20k a month, or the salary of 4 developers. On a company that is probably 100+ people as it currently stands, that's not so much.
Nobody will finance? Well, the devs all live in Socal, and presumably live in $500-750k houses that they could get an additional mortgage on.  None of this is remotely outside the realm of possibility.

I've been a Fallout fanboy since I bought the first one brand new, but I will play devil's advocate when assessing the projects of Fallout alumni, because I think some has been riding their reputations for too long. To all that supported this game, I think you are doing a good thing, but quit putting Obsidian on this magical pedestal. They aren't comprised of some guy in a basement, they are a corporation out to make money.

[nenjin]

1/3rd of the way there and they aren't even through the first day. 

[Digital Hellhound]

snip

Uhh, I'm not sure if you're answering me, someone above my post, or talking to yourself, but... (and I mean I'm genuinely confused) what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that the devs should play for the game out of their own pocket? Or that this is a devilish plot to get personal wealth?

Again, no offense, your post is just a bit unclear and I'm interested.

[scriver]

Watching. This thing might very well take my kickstartginity.

[Mullet Master]

Uhh, I'm not sure if you're answering me, someone above my post, or talking to yourself, but... (and I mean I'm genuinely confused) what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that the devs should play for the game out of their own pocket? Or that this is a devilish plot to get personal wealth?

Again, no offense, your post is just a bit unclear and I'm interested.

It seems to be the consensus opinion of people in this thread that Obsidian is using Kickstarter as a way to fund a game and retain creative freedom. You asked :

Pray tell, what should have they done for greater creative freedom? They need to get money from somewhere.

This is going to sound rude, but I'm going to condense my points as much as possible.

Point #1: You don't know how much money Obsidian has in the bank. They might have enough money sitting in the bank to 100% fund this development and not bat an eye.
Point #2: Assuming they didn't have money in the bank, this amount of of money isn't that difficult to come up with. I gave two scenarios.
            Scenario 1: Borrow the money and lay off 4 people. Not hard to do in a company with 100 + employees.
            Scenario 2: Raising a million dollars in a place where the average home price is $500k isn't hard to do.
 
I gave very plausible scenarios for them to fund the game by themselves that give the more creative freedom than the current Kickstarter gives. This is in effort to refute the point that they need Kickstarter to retain creative freedom.

[Digital Hellhound]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I don't really think that's very plausible or practical at all when compared to this, but I guess it would've been a possibility.

Though - while the effect of the 'create a __' rewards on Obsidian's creative freedom is miniscule, I do wonder if they thought everything through before making that many reward spots for them. With the rate the money's coming in, they could actually fill up.

Kickstarter is also a fairly effective way to communicate with fans, so there's that.

[neotemplar]

Sadly I just can't get into it.  Especially given my last experience with them was NWN2 which doesn't hold a candle to NWN1.

And how Fallout NV just wasn't as good as Fallout 3.

[Viken]

That's the problem with the Developer <-> Publisher system in game design.  Publishers bring in lots of money from investors and payouts from console designers and technology mongols; and then get to pick-and-choose the developers and games they want to represent, putting limitations on time limits, amount of freedom, and subsudies to the developement studio to make sure they get the product and a full accounting to the money they handed out.

The old system used to be were the Development companies didn't need publishers, and did their own things, and did it damned well; but when we're talking about tens of millions of dollars being spent on next-gen consoles and hardware, game developers just don't have the funds to keep up without publishers.

Unless, of course, they choose a program like Kickstarter, where they go directly to the public with their ideas and brandish it about in such a way that people want to put forward the money themselves.  In truth, its probably a better system, but if it starts cutting in to publishers accountings, we could very well see Kickstarter under alot of scrutiny and even lawsuits in the near future. 

I wish Obsidian the best of luck!

[pilgrimboy]

            Scenario 1: Borrow the money and lay off 4 people. Not hard to do in a company with 100 + employees.
            Scenario 2: Raising a million dollars in a place where the average home price is $500k isn't hard to do.

If I were them, I would choose...

Scenario 3: Do a Kickstarter.

Seemed like a wise decision. Nobody gets laid off. Nobody has to put their home on the line. Life is good.