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[GlyphGryph]

I have never been well versed in the arcane arts of credit juggling. Of the many places my opinion holds value, that is not one of them. The system doesn't make any sense to me, and thus my brain rejects it. Even thinking about the process is somewhat painful.

[mainiac]

I have never been well versed in the arcane arts of credit juggling. Of the many places my opinion holds value, that is not one of them. The system doesn't make any sense to me, and thus my brain rejects it. Even thinking about the process is somewhat painful.

Yeah I used to be like that then I botched my graduation requirements and had to add extra time onto my sentence.  I now pay careful attention now to the rules of my particular institution and will until the day I hold that piece of paper in my hands.  I strongly advise everyone to adopt the same attitude.

[Skyrunner]

What's the difference between AP and CLEP? :-0
They seem to both basically be a ticket to opt out of general classes ...

Also, the trickiest part papers-wise is the visa. Dx I don't know if (a) getting into a 4-year university (b) filing for deferred admittance (c) getting into a 2-year CC would work. :s

[Tellemurius]

Our visas are designed that you have to be accepted into the school first before you can apply for them but after that it's easy. AP are advance placement classes taken in high school that's entry level college courses. Difference is against CLEP is you get a test and a class but the test results are only good for 2 years and most colleges won't accept scores below 4.

[mainiac]

AP is the one where colleges won't accept below 4.  Clep is on a percentage scale. 

The two are similar but you can't take AP unless you've taken the course first.  CLEP isn't as widely accepted and APs generally give you more useful credits towards your requirements.

Also, the trickiest part papers-wise is the visa. Dx I don't know if (a) getting into a 4-year university (b) filing for deferred admittance (c) getting into a 2-year CC would work. :s

Given those complications I think you should consider just womaning up and going to a 4 year like your parents want.  You can do CLEP at a 4-year college though and still come out ahead of a lot of people.

[Truean]

Community Colleges are the exact same as 4 year colleges, except the price. College has absolutely no value, at all, whatsoever, except what you create from it. Very rarely will name recognition get you much, unless you're talking about a Harvard, Yale, etc.

I will advise pretty much anyone to go to a community college, get an associates, and then transfer to a 4 year school. It will, on average, save you thousands of dollars and bullshit.

[Shinotsa]

AP is the one where colleges won't accept below 4.

Some colleges take 3's in classes that aren't directed toward your major. That's how I got out of a semester of calculus. Other colleges will only take 5's in areas you major in. What's accepted is completely up to the institution.

[MaximumZero]

Community Colleges are the exact same as 4 year colleges, except the price. College has absolutely no value, at all, whatsoever, except what you create from it. Very rarely will name recognition get you much, unless you're talking about a Harvard, Yale, etc.

I will advise pretty much anyone to go to a community college, get an associates, and then transfer to a 4 year school. It will, on average, save you thousands of dollars and bullshit.

Most of the time. *sigh*

[nenjin]

Community Colleges are the exact same as 4 year colleges, except the price. College has absolutely no value, at all, whatsoever, except what you create from it.

I have to disagree with this. Yes, colleges are overpriced. Yes, there's a ton of BS you have to deal with to be in one. But they have a) better facilities b) better classes c) better instructors d) better peers and e) better opportunities. I agree that it's better to go to a CC then to a 4-year. But the rest? Sounds like bitterness that overlooks the advantages they offer. (At a premium, of course.)

[Truean]

Community Colleges are the exact same as 4 year colleges, except the price. College has absolutely no value, at all, whatsoever, except what you create from it.

I have to disagree with this. Yes, colleges are overpriced. Yes, there's a ton of BS you have to deal with to be in one. But they have a) better facilities b) better classes c) better instructors d) better peers and e) better opportunities. I agree that it's better to go to a CC then to a 4-year. But the rest? Sounds like bitterness that overlooks the advantages they offer. (At a premium, of course.)

Well now, bitterness yes. That's pretty much one of my main things here and I totally say so, a lot. All the same, I really and truly do not see any advantage to 4 year colleges, especially in the first two years.

No really, what are you taking as far as classes go in the first and second year? 1st year Major (if you've picked one) and Core Classes, right? I don't get how you can make those "better" anywhere. Your core social science credit for either Psych 101, or Poli Sci, or Soc or whatever they make you take for that, is gonna be the same. There's only so much you can do with a psych 101 course. And, the fact that they make you take gym or PE (so the PE teachers have somebody to teach), ditto. The "Techniques of relaxation" course, stressed me out. You can either pay $200 or $300/credit hour on those courses, or you can pay $700-800 credit hour on 'em. I think they made me take a few introductory literature courses as well. Again, there's only so much you can do with the stuff written by the old dead white guys. Homer is pretty played out and while I kinda enjoyed the Iliad/Oddessy, I look back at it and realize I totally overpaid for that course. Dear lord that doesn't even touch how a lot of places are now requiring you to take a "College 101" course. What the heck IS that anyhow? I mean, they make it 3 credit hours, which translates into "expensive tour of the place and what you should be doing here." They should totally throw that in for free.

As for the writing course, it was terrible. I didn't really learn how to write until the lawyer I was clerking for decided to buy an entire pack of red pens to drown everything I submitted to him in blood red ink. Simply, no school ever taught me how to write well. That goes more towards how writing in the US is generally taught terribly to begin with, no matter where you are.

I truly, honestly, and with great detail, advocate that US colleges are worthless in general. They're a regulatory hoop you have to go through to so much as apply for some jobs (not that you'll necessarily get one) that neither teach you how to build practical, marketable skills, nor show you practical marketable skills.

[nenjin]

Let me retort then.

No one is disputing that a Freshmen year in College is loaded with extraneous bullshit that they call requirements. There are also plenty of elective and non-elective courses that are pure fluff. Then again, people take a class on the classics because they want to or because it's part of an English degree or concentration.

But I believe what I said above pretty much holds true. Dollar for dollar, facilities at a college will blow the facilities of a community college out of the water. The people you're surrounded by are also pure students; they're not a guy trying to get his 2-year welding degree so he can move away from his shit hole of a life. Likewise, while there are plenty of faults with university professors, they're generally more knowledgable and better at teaching than a teacher at a CC who is there to ram through as many students as they can per semester. University professors can be like that too, but less often than CC teachers. The classes themselves are deeper (both a good and a bad thing), offer more variety and aren't truncated because of a limited budget like at CCs. Lastly, the opportunities that get put in front of you at a college is partly why you pay out the nose. Job faires at Universities are going to be better. Internship opportunities are going to be better. Scholarship opportunities are going to be better.

I mean, I get what you're saying. I loathed college and all the BS while I was there. But after I left I realized that most of my unhappiness was on me. Yes, you can't get around a lot of the reqs, but college is what you make of it by and large. I rarely took advantage of half of the things my university offered me because I was stubborn, lazy regarding anything beyond my course work and I wasn't pushing myself to excel, make connections or do something novel.

So if you're like ME, then yes, you're probably wasting a load of money on a university education. However, if you're NOT like me and want to pursue those scholarships, internships, research opportunities, ect..... a community college will not satisfy those ambitions. At least not to the degree a university could.

Lastly, it's worth noting: different universities do things differently. The ONLY pure general req course I had to take here was a library 101 course, to teach freshmen how to research academic journals online and use the dewey decimal system, and generally how to research a topic. Since I knew how to do that already, it was a big goddamn waste of my time. But for some people, that was necessary information to succeed in college. I never had to take a single lick of PE as a required course. So, again, not all universities are stupid to the same degree or in the same ways.

[Truean]

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[Mephansteras]

That's the one thing I really liked about getting a business degree. The vast majority of my teachers were people who had been in business for years before going into teaching and had a lot of good practical advice to give. Half of what I learned in those classes was actually taught in class and had nothing to do with the textbooks. Exactly how teaching should work, in my opinion.

And since I went into business intelligence, being able to intelligently talk with people from all different branches of a company was incredibly useful.

I can't speak too much about other disciplines, but I think it does matter a lot on who your teachers are and what kind of a degree you're trying to get. I know a lot of Science jobs pretty much require actual lab experience (usually from a class) in order to get a job, so that's an area where having a good well-funded department can make a big difference. I know that the presence of USCD is what makes San Diego one of the hubs of the biotech industry.

However, I'm all for doing the 2 year CC route and then moving into a 4 year for the final years of your degree(s). Much cheaper and just as effective for the lower division stuff.

[nenjin]

I'm kinda surprised Truean. You don't seem the type to make broad-based generalizations but you seem to be doing that all over of the place as it relates to college.

The facilities are more expensive. So what?

It matters a lot to an out of state student. It's not like they can go home if the school they're going to has shit dorms, shit dining halls and no other real facilities.

a.) That wielding degree guy is representative of people who make up the average person. You have to learn to deal with him one way or another.

You'll deal with them when you need their help, anyways. I'm not talking about learning to talk to them. I'm talking about whether they can or will be any help/fun/ect.. to deal with while you're in school.

b.) College kids in general aren't so great anyhow. They'll sell you out if the opportunity arises.

Anyone will sell you out, when it's their grade vs. your's. I don't think that's relevant to CC or Uni.

As for the teachers at colleges and universities, pretty much worthless in general. I say this routinely to them. Fact of the matter is, they won't back up their belief in their knowledge by taking personal risks (putting their money where their mouth is). They sure do love telling other people how to do stuff though. Notice, if their advice goes bad, then there is absolutely no negative consequence for the teacher. The person following their advice however gets screwed. This is particularly a problem with political science professors, who overwhelmingly are not lawyers, but who tend to give legal advice that usually doesn't work out. Nobody cares what a poli sci professor thinks of the 5th amendment when you've been arrested. Your poli sci professor can't save you. Your English teacher can't show you how to write a novel that will sell. They make certain to tell you, only after the fact, that they never promised you a job.... Bullshit. Everyone has. From the time these kids could understand English, it's been drilled into their heads to study hard, go into the best school you can, and get a good job. Except now there are no jobs for them, and after the fact, after they've done everything they've been told, do you know what we have the audacity to tell these unemployed kids? "Well, you should've gone to the cheaper school....." <--- This is the exact opposite of what we told them to do.

Wow, someone had some negative teacher/student interactions

I generally didn't have a problem with my teachers. Then again I wasn't going to them for legal advice or things of that nature. To say they're "worthless in general" I think is really harsh, or at least lacks a basic respect for what they know and what they have to offer. I'm not putting them on a pedastal by any means....but I'm not taking a dump on what they can offer students, either.

I.) Is it worth the extra money to attend a 4 year college right away, or is it better to save the money and transfer in from a Community college.
I say it isn't worth the extra money and you should transfer in.

You can disagree with that or not. Seems you do, and that's fine.

If you'd read, this is exactly what I did. So no, I don't disagree. It's what I was recommending. But what I didn't say was "college is complete bullshit, your teachers are fucktards and you're better off reading a book."

FWIW, I didn't do law school. And I know those that have (or med school) have distinctly different and often more negative experiences than those that pursued some other discipline.

[Truean]

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