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[GreatWyrmGold]

Relative ranks might work, but there need to be absolutes for determining quality of a work.

[Phlum]

Relative ranks might work, but there need to be absolutes for determining quality of a work.

Why not have those be relative too? If ranks could be relative why not the quality of work?

Btw doesn't this seem like it should come with the rewrite of the dorf brain? Relativity seems so far beyond the current dorf thoughts of, "my spouse died, ooo this dining room is amazing!"

[GreatWyrmGold]

Relative ranks might work, but there need to be absolutes for determining quality of a work.

Why not have those be relative too? If ranks could be relative why not the quality of work?

Btw doesn't this seem like it should come with the rewrite of the dorf brain? Relativity seems so far beyond the current dorf thoughts of, "my spouse died, ooo this dining room is amazing!

Quality ranks have a very real place in the code. How much an +iron short sword+ is worth might vary, but it will do as well as any +iron short sword+, even if one was made by a race of masterful dwarven smiths and the other by goblin slaves.

[hanni79]

Maybe it could work if Attribute values simply influence the EXP gain/ action.

Lets say we have a carpenter. The five Attributes connected to this labour are :      Strength Agility Creativity Spatial Sense Kinesthetic Sense
Every Attribute has 9 states between value zero and five thousand (Example : http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Attribute#Strength ), so we could decrease the Exp gain for every category under the top one by 2% for example. Having an "unfathomably weak abysmally clumsy next to no creative talent  no sense for spatial relationships an unbelievably atrocious sense of the position of own body" Dwarf would result in 80% decrease of Exp gain. In DL (Dwarf Life ), it should lead to 35-45% decrease of EXP gain, since hopefully no one will let such a poor existence live without proper training....
 
   
   

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd have XP be modified by dropping it 2-3% from somewhere closer to the average--maybe 2,000 for the baseline, then -2% per 400-500 points below or something. The current XP levels shouldn't require unbelievably strong, amazingly agile dwarves with a boundless creative imagination, a stunning feel for spatial relationships, and an astounding feel for the position of own body. I'm not sure what all of those have to do with carpentry, anyways.

XP penalties for low attributes make sense, though, just not the exact way you wrote them.

[hanni79]

Well, I tried to take into account that the OP wanted Dwarves to level slower in the first place, and since you can train most of the attributes anyway it wouldn't matter that much I guess.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Average is around 1000. Take that into account.

[GreatWyrmGold]

PM I just got:

Heya, I don't want to clutter the thread, so I thought it's better to write you directly

Regarding to "Average is around 1000. Take that into account."

No, I won't ^^ Like you said, those numbers are, well, wrong. All those numbers were purely to demonstrate the underlying concept, so I won't argue about them.  Also I read some days ago, that the median attribute value is quite a bit higher than 1000, which I also tried to take into account. I'm talking about the values how they are actually generated on dwarves, not the theoretical average.

I think a 50% drop in Exp gain for only being average would be a bit hardcore, too. On the other hand I have to admit some professions get too easily to Legendary level. In the end I myself would plead for some harsh Exp cuts for the lowest categorys ( like Strength 0-250 and 251-500) and some slim extra Exp gain for super high values.

Greets, Hanni79

Let's focus on saying that average is not around 1,000. Many, perhaps most, of the attributes list the upper end of their highest of the "below average" descriptors as 750 and the lower and of the lowest of the "above average" as 1,500. Almost all seem to have the best of the below-average under 1,000, and the worst of the above-average above it. And if you had said something like "on the lines of X," I wouldn't have disputed the numbers. Much. And great dwarves should get notable boosts to skill learning rate.

That's all, continue on from here.

[Fortress Calling]

How about this:
Dabbling/no skill dwarfs can learn a skill in two and only two ways: apprenticeship and self-learning. I believe that apprenticeship is already in plans (it's listed in the old bloat dev pages but not in the new ones). Self-learning would be a desperate measure in case you don't have an actual master to teach apprentices, it would rise by repetition like everything does now and it would have a low cap like adequate or competent.
Apprenticeship would be a proper way to learn a skill and it would have a soft cap based on a master's skill. So a proficient master would teach less than a grand master one would, and every student would be able to reach his master's skill level plus a little bit more so over generations the average skill level in that craft would increase.

[Adrian]

Once guilds and apprenticeship and stuff kick in a dwarf could take up apprenticeship with a (High/Grand)-Master until he has become Accomplished in his trade.
Then, everything up to Grand Master should be done through self learning, and after receiving a Master title they can take in apprentices themselves.
But most importantly: i believe that becoming Legendary in a trade should no longer happen through experience gain, but only through strange moods at Master+ level.
This would make Grand Master the experience-cap and make Legendary dwarves actually legendary.

[Broken]

I think that dwarfs should have labor preferences, exactly as they have item preferences. That will give them greater exp gains and a higher
level cap in their desired jobs, as well as reduced exp gains in jobs they don't like.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Once guilds and apprenticeship and stuff kick in a dwarf could take up apprenticeship with a (High/Grand)-Master until he has become Accomplished in his trade.
Then, everything up to Grand Master should be done through self learning, and after receiving a Master title they can take in apprentices themselves.
But most importantly: i believe that becoming Legendary in a trade should no longer happen through experience gain, but only through strange moods at Master+ level.
This would make Grand Master the experience-cap and make Legendary dwarves actually legendary.

All non-possession moods should grant legendary skills, and legendary dwarves should be possible outside of moods. I'm not saying that a year of mining should grant legendary skill, I'm just saying that a dwarf should have other options open to him.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Once guilds and apprenticeship and stuff kick in a dwarf could take up apprenticeship with a (High/Grand)-Master until he has become Accomplished in his trade.
Then, everything up to Grand Master should be done through self learning, and after receiving a Master title they can take in apprentices themselves.
But most importantly: i believe that becoming Legendary in a trade should no longer happen through experience gain, but only through strange moods at Master+ level.
This would make Grand Master the experience-cap and make Legendary dwarves actually legendary.

All non-possession moods should grant legendary skills, and legendary dwarves should be possible outside of moods. I'm not saying that a year of mining should grant legendary skill, I'm just saying that a dwarf should have other options open to him.

An idea I've mentioned in similar threads would be to set a certain skill level requirement to have non-possession moods. I definitely don't think it should be as high as master though, about halfway to legendary or so mayhap. And having the normal moods as the only way to get to legendary is a bad idea, since it's never a good idea to leave something like that solely to randomness (ie getting screwed over by possession moods over and over and over...)

(this would also fix the annoyance of having your non-craftsdwarfs constantly turning into bonecrafters or woodcrafters etc, as they'd always default to a possession unless they were semi-skilled in a crafting profession.

[Adrian]

I'm not saying that a year of mining should grant legendary skill, I'm just saying that a dwarf should have other options open to him.

Being a Legend implies there are few others with your skills, but Dwarf Fort as it exists now churns out Legends at ridiculous quanitities.
And gaining Legendary skill should not be as easy as [make rock crafts R].

I stand by my idea of Legends only being created through moods and making Grand Master the experience cap.
Because Grand Masters already make lots of masterwork goods.

Legends should be special, not mooks.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not saying that a year of mining should grant legendary skill, I'm just saying that a dwarf should have other options open to him.

Being a Legend implies there are few others with your skills, but Dwarf Fort as it exists now churns out Legends at ridiculous quanitities.
And gaining Legendary skill should not be as easy as [make rock crafts R].

I stand by my idea of Legends only being created through moods and making Grand Master the experience cap.
Because Grand Masters already make lots of masterwork goods.

Legends should be special, not mooks.

You shouldn't be screwed out of a legendary because your grand master stonecrafter got possessed. And I never said that repeating the same job over and over should result in a legendary dwarf; in fact, I said essentially the opposite.