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[misko27]

However I still think Toady needs an editor to keep him on track. I can't help but cringe every time I read yet another update about adventure mode or worldgen. So much time and effort spent for such tiny or not even noticeable effects for the player. I wish he'd focus more on things that the player will actually notice, and be more practical in what he works on rather than being distracted by the more esoteric.

I'm sorry, I thought you could play adventure mode, my mistake. And there are alot of people who enjoy legends mode.

[saltmummy626]

my two cents are, anyone who thinks that the graphics makes the game, clearly doesn't like games and would rather spend their time looking at screenshots. hell, most of the best games have terrible graphics. minecraft for example.
now that said, I notice that things are getting into speed of development. Im fine with this, it may take toady awhile to do the updates, but he keeps us updated with what he is working on. something other games I play (minecraft) dont really do to the extent toady does. when the updates finally do come out, I find that toady isnt wasting time on piddling little crap that takes other companies (mojang) the same amount of time to do. the last update toady put out (major update) happened... what? a year? a year and a half? after the last one. fine! he added a bunch of stuff that we all love. vampires, new city generation, tons more critters, lycanthropy, the list goes on. in that same amount of time, minecraft didnt come out with anything I really found impressive at all. new blocks, a couple new critters and items, and while I do like the forts, the chasms, and the mines, the new world gen code sucks.

but think about this, I own a lot of games, among them are games like skyrim, just cause 2, all the half-life games, mount and blade, dark souls, fallout 3, new vegas, blah blah blah. I have racked up more time playing DF than I have any of these other games combined. the only game that really comes close to the amount of time spent in DFs randomly generated worlds of !!FUN!!, is garry's mod, and I havent touched Gmod in years.

also it appears the OP of this thread has fled.

[Mudcrab]

I find it incredibly hard to believe anyone can complain about Toady's actions, considering the scope and depth of the game and the way he works on it alone... Shame on you.

Not gonna lie ive only read this page but Hyndis saying you 'cringe' at Toady's updates is quite simply blasphemous and I hope Armok pulverises you for your insolence! Just because you personally are not interested in the focus of the update in development does not excuse such a comment.

[Hyndis]

Its unfocused productivity that has a low return that mildly annoys me. Its just because there is so much brilliant work being spent on something that will have little return, when instead if that same amount of productive work was used in other ways, it could drastically improve the game in players interact with on a more regular basis.

Its the low hanging fruit principle. Work on the easy stuff first. Most bang for your bucket that way.

There are plenty of roguelikes (including Diablo clones, as Diablo is only rogue with a pretty UI) in the world, but dwarf mode is unique as far as I can tell.

[Mudcrab]

Yeah I see what your saying but unfortunately its really not that simple.... What Toady is implementing is only the beginning of bringing the worlds you generate to life, instead of the state they are in now... Further down the line (or maybe even after the next few updates!) this could have quite significant impacts on the gameplay of Dwarf Mode itself... Dwarven familys will be more pronounced, their will be lineages etc... Adds a whole lot of immersion if you ask me!

Its not as simple as you make it out to be!

[Zivilin]

I find it incredibly hard to believe anyone can complain about Toady's actions, considering the scope and depth of the game and the way he works on it alone... Shame on you.

Generally, people can and will complain about anything they want, despite any relevant circumstances. It's a natural skill No harm in throwing out opinions, in any case.

There are plenty of roguelikes (including Diablo clones, as Diablo is only rogue with a pretty UI) in the world, but dwarf mode is unique as far as I can tell.

But the concepts of Fortress mode and Adventurer mode were created together as a sort of... synergistic gaming entity. Build up fortresses in Fortress Mode, inevitably lose, and then visit the old sites in Adventure Mode. You become a part of the worlds history, either by the deeds performed while an adventurer or the achievements of the fortress. Its really an intricate idea, with both modes interacting with each other.

The point is, You can't arrest development of one faucet of the game without negatively impacting the other in the long term. It would be different if the final product was supposed to be Fortress mode, and Adventurer mode was to be an interesting addition. In fact, from what I understand, originally it was the other way around and Fortress mode was the side project to the main Adventurer-styled game. But as long as both modes have a significant role in Toady's vision of the version 1.00, then there's probably need for simultaneous development of the features of both modes. I'm sure a development plan has been sketched out a long time ago and Toady is following it.

In any case, I play Fortress mode 90% of the time, so I understand that a certain amount of frustration is generated when there's a lot of attention focused on improving adventure mode when there are so many things which can be fixed in Fortress mode. Still, I am looking forward to the end product, and I'm pretty sure that each update contributes towards that end (even if it doesn't necessarily contribute to my immediate fun).

[misko27]

I find it incredibly hard to believe anyone can complain about Toady's actions, considering the scope and depth of the game and the way he works on it alone... Shame on you.

Generally, people can and will complain about anything they want, despite any relevant circumstances. It's a natural skill No harm in throwing out opinions, in any case.

There are plenty of roguelikes (including Diablo clones, as Diablo is only rogue with a pretty UI) in the world, but dwarf mode is unique as far as I can tell.

But the concepts of Fortress mode and Adventurer mode were created together as a sort of... synergistic gaming entity. Build up fortresses in Fortress Mode, inevitably lose, and then visit the old sites in Adventure Mode. You become a part of the worlds history, either by the deeds performed while an adventurer or the achievements of the fortress. Its really an intricate idea, with both modes interacting with each other.

The point is, You can't arrest development of one faucet of the game without negatively impacting the other in the long term. It would be different if the final product was supposed to be Fortress mode, and Adventurer mode was to be an interesting addition. In fact, from what I understand, originally it was the other way around and Fortress mode was the side project to the main Adventurer-styled game. But as long as both modes have a significant role in Toady's vision of the version 1.00, then there's probably need for simultaneous development of the features of both modes. I'm sure a development plan has been sketched out a long time ago and Toady is following it.

In any case, I play Fortress mode 90% of the time, so I understand that a certain amount of frustration is generated when there's a lot of attention focused on improving adventure mode when there are so many things which can be fixed in Fortress mode. Still, I am looking forward to the end product, and I'm pretty sure that each update contributes towards that end (even if it doesn't necessarily contribute to my immediate fun).

^I love this guy. Using big words and such, warms me heart.

[FritzPL]

OKAY, OKAY, BRING IN THE LOCKING CREW


I think the shit we needed to talk about went down, and we have explained to eachother that we will stick with whatever Toady does/we'll only do ASCII/iwantmyfuckingnomorianow opinions we've got.
Sorry for being so out of context, but it's pointless to continue this discussion, or flamewar, as some like to call it.

[misko27]

OKAY, OKAY, BRING IN THE LOCKING CREW


I think the shit we needed to talk about went down, and we have explained to eachother that we will stick with whatever Toady does/we'll only do ASCII/iwantmyfuckingnomorianow opinions we've got.
Sorry for being so out of context, but it's pointless to continue this discussion, or flamewar, as some like to call it.

I SAID THIS 2 PAGES AGO!

[MadocComadrin]

In addition to Zivillin's post, Legends Mode is essentially a report of the state and history of the world you generated. It sets the background and context for your fortress or adventure, so expanding Legends Mode is also important for the other two, as changes to Legend's Mode often come from additions to world gen in general. Likewise, it has merit of its own: many of the best tales of DF come from Legends Mode only: Cacame and Tholtig Cryptbrain come to mind.

[saltmummy626]

OKAY, OKAY, BRING IN THE LOCKING CREW


I think the shit we needed to talk about went down, and we have explained to eachother that we will stick with whatever Toady does/we'll only do ASCII/iwantmyfuckingnomorianow opinions we've got.
Sorry for being so out of context, but it's pointless to continue this discussion, or flamewar, as some like to call it.

I SAID THIS 2 PAGES AGO!

yeah, this got out of hand really fast... lets not drag the regular crap that floats around the rest of the internet into, what I find to be, a genuinely pleasant forum.

[tootboot]

I think people use a bit of circular logic on Adventure Mode sometimes.  It's undeveloped so I don't play it so I don't like him spending time on it.

It will never reach a state where you want to play it if he never spends any time on it!

[GoombaGeek]

Its unfocused productivity that has a low return that mildly annoys me.

Unfocused? Low return? From what I've seen, adventure mode is getting very close to being jaw-droppingly realistic and full of little touches. I mean, towns have dungeons and keeps and castles, yet the wiki says almost nothing about them because not enough people play Adventurer Mode. I am one of them. I have yet to figure it out. But I can handle it. I got this.

Its just because there is so much brilliant work being spent on something that will have little return, when instead if that same amount of productive work was used in other ways, it could drastically improve the game in players interact with on a more regular basis.

Yes, but is it being wasted? I mean, it's like slowly filling a glass. It doesn't really matter what order you put the ingredients in at the end, so doing these awesome features (come on, who isn't excited about blood detection as a vampire?) midway through is pretty acceptable to me. And the new sites - that's "little return"? The world will be filled with locations as detailed as human towns, with every civilization interacting and building. That's enough to get me playing Adventurer Mode seriously, because everywhere I go will be exciting (hopefully ).

Its the low hanging fruit principle. Work on the easy stuff first. Most bang for your bucket that way.

Yes, that works if there are time constraints or money being spent. Dwarf Fortress is free anytime and Toady One's entire source of income (last I checked) was donations from it. He can go at whatever pace he likes as long as people are happy enough to freely donate money even when they don't have to, and going like "omg stop developing adventure mode because I personally don't play it" is just silly.

[misko27]

Seriously, lock the damn thread. Its turning flamewar between anti and pro-adventurers (mostly hyndis and everyone else respectively).

[MadocComadrin]

I haven't seen much flaming or hate. :|