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[misko27]

For all of those of you asking for graphics like that, go check out Stonesense, which is currently part of the DFHack package. Because it seriously looks exactly the same as what you are describing (new versions probably look better).

Spoiler: Example 1 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Example 2 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Example 3 (click to show/hide)

For those of you talking about true 3D graphics, keep this in mind. One of the specific reasons that Toady stopped developing Armok I was because he hated doing all of the 3D graphics updates and how much time they took, as well as preventing development from proceeding as Toady wanted it to. If graphics in DF are coming, then they won't be coming for a long time, so you might as well direct your attention to things like Stonesense, and how you could possibly contribute to making it better. (After all, Stonesense has the capability to do things like add attack animations with just a little bit of work, it's just that the creator doesn't want to spend time making the thousands of sprites required. If someone was to go out and do it for him, then he would happily be willing to work with them to implement it.)

See? SEE? All arguemtns are invalid. Now close the thread.

[MadocComadrin]

Not really. Toady's own arguments are completely valid: there are complications with creating a better GUI or an API to make an external one--the main one being it slows down content development. Stonesense is fine piggy-backing off of DFHack, and any Toady-made graphic improvements should be done very late in the development process, such as mid-to-late beta.

[tootboot]

I'm inclined to let Toady do whatever the heck he wants given that he's created an incredibly awesome game and made it available for free.

[FritzPL]

I'd just say we like to be conservative drunk bastards, sticking with hard/fun ways of doing things, and being proud of it.

No, we don't want a graphics engine.ASCII the best.

[Gatallorsith]

Ok I've read the last  two pages and tbh I still don't see a good reason to let the game graphics stop where It is now.

I'll try to answer\tell you what I personally think on the objections you expressed.

0) "DF development would stop\slow down..."
Already answered, he could hire someone with a kickstarter project
1) "But stonesense..."
You can't play stonesense or others 2d\3d visualizers directly, can you?
2) "Stonesense is better than Gnomoria.."
Who cares, Gnomoria is just an example, when I talk about starting a kickstarter I mean Toady can start a project on whatever graphic engine he desires.
3) "He is not a business..."
Hiring someone to do the job via kickstarter cannot be so difficult...the real challenge here is to do the right choice with the engine and find the right guy\team to develop it.
4) "There's a lot to be animated.."
Oh really?
5) "But you play DF for the "FUN!"..."
Surely, but I don't see why to stop here when we can have a lot more
6) "There're the graphic packs already..."
I know and I love them (Phoebus is my favourite), but again I don't see why to stop here when we can have a lot more
7) "Procedurally generated creatures become a problem, as do sizing and the such. How big is one space? How can you fit 100 dragons in one square if you can see all 100 dragons?"
I think the problem on procedurally generated creatures can be solved, as well as the "x creatures on the same space" (not good to see but you can leave the actual mechanics")..the real problem, imho, would be with an eventual 3d engine to fit in one space a huge creature (to have a decent result you should have It cover more that one space and idk if a problem like that would be easily solvable)
"Toady can do what he wants..."
...and he could do more

PS: interesting what Hyndis said on the UI too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He never would let it happen. Never. He just does as he likes it, and theres nothing you, or anyone, can do to stop him. If he decides goblins should be able to fly and that GCS's be able to bite through armor, thats his freaking descision. That is, of course, the final word.

So, OP, if you would mind locking the thread before it goes flame-war, I'd appreciate it.

See? SEE? All arguemtns are invalid. Now close the thread.

Wow...

[MadocComadrin]

0) "DF development would stop\slow down..."
Already answered, he could hire someone with a kickstarter project

Aside from the fact that he expressly stated he wants to work on this alone, it would still slow down development somewhat. It's not just art assests, but coding as well, and complex GUI and graphics code can be hell to write, and when Toady decides that some content code needs to be gutted or refactored, he has to worry about refactoring the graphics end.

2) "Stonesense is better than Gnomoria.."
Who cares, Gnomoria is just an example, when I talk about starting a kickstarter I mean Toady can start a project on whatever graphic engine he desires.

He doesn't desire one--not yet at least

3) "He is not a business..."
Hiring someone to do the job via kickstarter cannot be so difficult...the real challenge here is to do the right choice with the engine and find the right guy\team to develop it.

Once again, he doesn't want to. Toady works on DF quite a lot for his own enjoyment.

4) "There's a lot to be animated.."
Oh really?

Sprite-based animation can be just as painstaking as 3D animation--or even moreso, as you don't often have the luxury of interpolating between keyframes.

"Toady can do what he wants..."
...and he could do more

But he doesn't have to. Likewise, this "more" you speak of could be more content.

[Trif]

Ok I've read the last  two pages and tbh I still don't see a good reason to let the game graphics stop where It is now.

I'll try to answer\tell you what I personally think on the objections you expressed.

0) "DF development would stop\slow down..."
Already answered, he could hire someone with a kickstarter project

I don't want to work with other people.

And even with other people, development would still be slower.

1) "But stonesense..."
You can't play stonesense or others 2d\3d visualizers directly, can you?

That wasn't the point. The point was: if Toady decides to use isometric graphics, why should he try to imitate Gnomoria when he could use Stonesense for that.

2) "Stonesense is better than Gnomoria.."
Who cares, Gnomoria is just an example, when I talk about starting a kickstarter I mean Toady can start a project on whatever graphic engine he desires.

Okay.

3) "He is not a business..."
Hiring someone to do the job via kickstarter cannot be so difficult...the real challenge here is to do the right choice with the engine and find the right guy\team to develop it.

See 0). And again: Toady doesn't need the money, he needs the motivation.

4) "There's a lot to be animated.."
Oh really?

About 560 creatures. Plus the procedurally generated ones. And if you want the current level of detail in graphical form, there are variations for each creature in skin colour, fur colour, patterns, size, stature, wounds, and so on and so on. Maybe you'll need animations for each attack of each creature. And then there are about 90 sorts of stone, 90 sorts of plants, and various crafts and body parts...

5) "But you play DF for the "FUN!"..."
Surely, but I don't see why to stop here when we can have a lot more

Eh, I don't know if graphics really enhance the Fun. But that's a personal opinion.

6) "There're the graphic packs already..."
I know and I love them (Phoebus is my favourite), but again I don't see why to stop here when we can have a lot more

Slower development and all that. I won't repeat every counter-argument here.

7) "Procedurally generated creatures become a problem, as do sizing and the such. How big is one space? How can you fit 100 dragons in one square if you can see all 100 dragons?"
I think the problem on procedurally generated creatures can be solved, as well as the "x creatures on the same space" (not good to see but you can leave the actual mechanics")..the real problem, imho, would be with an eventual 3d engine to fit in one space a huge creature (to have a decent result you should have It cover more that one space and idk if a problem like that would be easily solvable)

Procedurally generated creatures can be solved, but it's a huge effort. And adding new features to them would take longer every time.
And you already mentioned the size problems: if you use isometric graphics, a giant looks about as big as a dwarf.

8) "Toady can do what he wants..."
...and he could do more :)

Correction: ...and he could do different things. If he wanted to.

And Ninja'd, of course.

[smirk]

stuff

Reasonable, but you should've read that wall o' Toady text that Trif posted. Relevant excerpts:

First, I don't want to work with other people.

A position he's been incredibly consistent on.

That's not to say that I don't want to grow the audience and allow more people play the game, but I want to do it in a way with which I feel satisfied, even if that ends up being slower or just plain worse than a hypothetical third party alternative.  ...  Despite my dedication to this project, I'm unwilling to sacrifice my enjoyment of working on it for anything, including its quality or even its future release if it comes down to that.  That should be plainly obvious.  I'm not a slave.

Speaks for itself. He doesn't like doing graphics, and it's entirely up to him.


EDIT: Oh great, ninja'd by Trif O_o

[MadocComadrin]

What am I, chopped liver?

[smirk]

What is this 'chopped'? I only know 'minced' O_0

[MadocComadrin]

Oh yes, I forgot the word does not quite exists in the dwarven tongue. Think "poorly minced."

[ivanthe8th]

We could dissect the possible "benefits" of an isometric graphics engine or an updated interface all we want but that will never change the reality of DF's development cycle:

Toady does this for pleasure.

He loves making games, and if he was interested in making money he'd go back to teaching with his PhD in Math. He's incredibly smart and talented and he could make a living doing practically anything. He chooses to make DF because he likes it and it makes him happy.

So when you say "It wouldn't be that hard to hire someone to do an API" you're not just saying "He could expand a bit", you're suggesting that he would welcome becoming someone's boss and spending time supervising their work. Reread the wall of text quote from him. He's making decisions based on his quality of life and what he wants to spend time doing. I can't blame him for wanting to spend his time making new and gruesome ways to kill elves rather than filling out payroll checks. Can you?

[aoxoa]

I do not even see the need for any improvements to the graphics. I have always used Phoebus which is plenty of graphics for me. The main aspect I want in a game is playability anyway.

Too many people these days think fancy graphics makes a game, and while to some it may... Others they concentrate way too much on the visuals and completely lack much of any gameplay at all.

The fun in DF is about forgetting to brew alcohol and a siege happening and start getting tantrum spirals lol (And much more). Its about having !FUN!. Which reminds me I had my first dragon appear the other day. 1050 World, and it breathed fire (So awesome), killing one of my guys and a merchant guard just slaughtered it solo.

Pheobus tileset was good enough. The whole dragon fire mechanics is just so fun to see too, unfortuantly it only breathed once on my Woodcutter.

Phew, sorry about that but I got caught up in the moment.

[Hyndis]

When I play DF, what I actually see is this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But I visualize this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That is the magic of the game. That is why DF is a work of pure genius.


However I still think Toady needs an editor to keep him on track. I can't help but cringe every time I read yet another update about adventure mode or worldgen. So much time and effort spent for such tiny or not even noticeable effects for the player. I wish he'd focus more on things that the player will actually notice, and be more practical in what he works on rather than being distracted by the more esoteric.

[Gatallorsith]

Thanks for the answers.

I haven't much else to say.
I'd like to hear what Toady thinks about It, if he really doesn't want to do something more on his "creature" now that's "mature" enough.
Personally I think it's a shame, and I say it because I love what he created.

Tbh I also find a little funny when you talk about slow development, I'm sure you'll understand why.

bye