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Author Topic: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?  (Read 34319 times)

JimiD

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 02:01:27 pm »

Having read the 'I badly draw your reports' thread, I will be lobbying for graphics in a chaotic sub-OOTS style.  YMMV.
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Urist McDwarfFortress

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2012, 02:19:12 pm »

You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

If Toady stopped working on the backbone of the game for a while so he could make some fancy graphics, he probably could do it. People would probably be happy with no new features for a while if it meant that they would get a nice, smooth, working interface.

However, then every time Toady added new features (which is constantly) he would have to tweak the graphics, at least a little bit. It would complicate every single new release quite a lot. This would mean longer times between releases. So the end result is that it would take Toady longer to finish his ideal game. Adding graphics at this point would move him further away from his end goal.

Of course, he could avoid this problem by hiring somebody to do graphics for him, but he doesn't seem to want anybody else messing with his code.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 02:21:41 pm by Urist McDwarfFortress »
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Adequate Swimmer

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2012, 03:11:42 pm »

You're forgetting the bit about animating 400 different kinds of rodent.
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zombie urist

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 03:20:25 pm »

And procedurally generated ones.
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misko27

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 04:03:37 pm »

And procedurally generated ones.
This.

Besides. that looks exactly like stonesense, so why would he need it? And theres a great number of people here who are opposed to the very idea of graphics beyond 2D.

But seriously, have you looked at stone sense? It is exactly like that. Seriously, someone put some example up. And i'm convinced more then ever that Gnomoria is a DF rip-off.
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Hammerstar

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 04:10:46 pm »

Actually, now that I'm looking closer, those shots look like a much more bland Stonesense. The current version included in DFHack has better sprites than that for the various plants and grass and the like.
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hjd_uk

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 04:21:34 pm »

Bah, you don't play DF for the graphics, you play it for the !!Fun!!. Explicit imagery and imagination are mutually exclusive.
The LoFi Gfx and UI : Its like an initiation test, only if you display imagination and perseverance will you be ordained worthy to play Dwarf Fortress.
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They Got Leader

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 04:32:21 pm »

You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

If Toady stopped working on the backbone of the game for a while so he could make some fancy graphics, he probably could do it. People would probably be happy with no new features for a while if it meant that they would get a nice, smooth, working interface.

However, then every time Toady added new features (which is constantly) he would have to tweak the graphics, at least a little bit. It would complicate every single new release quite a lot. This would mean longer times between releases. So the end result is that it would take Toady longer to finish his ideal game. Adding graphics at this point would move him further away from his end goal.

Of course, he could avoid this problem by hiring somebody to do graphics for him, but he doesn't seem to want anybody else messing with his code.

This is why I think DF is going in the best direction. Toady is making the best game that he sees fit, we are just happening to be receiving the best game that man could conceive I would argue. The 2D looks of ASCII or tilesets do what Toady wants them to do, make you envision the world yourself. DF isn't about completing the quests or about making it look the prettiest, it is about exploring a near-infinite possibility generator. Graphics suddenly limit what you see to what they want you to see. Procedurally generated creatures become a problem, as do sizing and the such. How big is one space? How can you fit 100 dragons in one square if you can see all 100 dragons?


From an interview

" Shared projects like Boatmurdered mark the extent to which Tarn accommodates multiplayer participation. Massive multiplayer online games have been a lucrative industry trend for years, but Tarn disdains M.M.O.’s. To him, they replace the deep pleasures of imaginative game design with the novelty of community and are invariably oriented toward mass, lowest-common-denominator appeal. “Half the people I met were 12-year-olds yelling homophobic slurs,” he says.

At bottom, Dwarf Fortress mounts an argument about play. Many video games mimic the look and structure of films: there’s a story line, more or less fixed, that progresses­ only when you complete required tasks. This can make for gripping fun, but also the constrictive sense that you are a mouse in a tricked-out maze, chasing chunks of cheese. Tarn envisions Dwarf Fortress, by contrast, as an open-ended “story generator.” He and Zach grew up playing computer games with notebooks in hand, drawing their own renditions of the randomly generated creatures they encountered and logging their journeys in detail. Dwarf Fortress, which never unfolds the same way twice, takes that spirit of supple, fully engaged play to the extreme.

Tarn sees his work in stridently ethical terms. He calls games like Angry Birds or Bejeweled, which ensnare players in addictive loops of frustration and gratification under the pretense that skill is required to win, “abusive” — a common diagnosis among those who get hooked on the games, but a surprising one from a game designer, ostensibly charged with doing the hooking. “Many popular games tap into something in a person that is compulsive, like hoarding,” he said, “the need to make progress with points or collect things. You sit there saying yeah-yeah-yeah and then you wake up and say, What the hell was I doing? You can call that kind of game fun, but only if you call compulsive gambling fun.” He added: “I used to value the ability to turn the user into your slave. I don’t anymore.” "
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Quote from: Urist McDwarfFortress
You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

furuka

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2012, 05:00:22 pm »

Agreed on the general graphics front, but the interface could do with some help. It seems like a mouse interface could be procedurally generated where you could Mouse Over for information like with 'k' and right click to go through the options, following the same menu hierarchies that are present now, and maintaining the hotkeys. Then the interface could also remember frequently and recently used commands and keep them easily accessible.

Old players could keep the swiftness of muscle-bound hotkeys, while new players could still make things happen and slowly learn hotkeys as they progress.
Even context based left-clicking seems possible since the game already knows what is affected and what isn't by different commands. The process might be reversible so that when you left-click a workshop, you get workshop related options, left-click a tree, same thing. Right-click anywhere and you get the full menu.

Context based menus, mouse navigation along with hotkeys, and more of those menus where you can search by typing partial strings like the management menu, would do wonders for the game. It would even be nice to have a hotkey that let's you type a string to search through all of the commands, next to which are their respective hotkeys.


I personally like the texture pack graphics over the ascii, which has its charm but is confusing to learn at first, so I skipped it. All the detail doesn't need to be there, it can be representational. Here is a rodent, mouse over for details. Here is a humanoid, here a winged creature, here an insect.

But graphics is definitely not important, especially when the community is willing to make it.

But interface is.

Returning to DF after a hiatus is always a pain because I forget the hotkeys.
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They Got Leader

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2012, 05:53:06 pm »

For the finished product, optimization and better interface would definitely be worked on. The graphic sets like Phoebus and the such are great for people who enjoy them, much like texture packs in Minecraft, change them around to change how your fort looks. I use ASCII because then I have the best chance to see what I want from the bland characters. Keep us guessing in the dark with the basics of an idea. This is a winged creature. This is an elf. This is a blood-soaked dwarf that is missing his liver, his left eye and is carrying an artifact cat-bone axe that has kaolinite cabochons. How do you depict that?
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Quote from: Urist McDwarfFortress
You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

Naros

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2012, 06:02:05 pm »

Oh yes please. The engine of Gnomoria is nice. <3
The game is a bit too simple (and the pathfinding! ugh!) to be as enjoyable as DF, even if you take into account that it's fortress-only mode, but the multi-layer view and some other features are just lovely.

To the people who keep saying "just use stonesense :V" I ask; can you give commands in Stonesense (like dig, look at a dwarf, etc)? Does it have various ways to give orders with the mouse?
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Hyndis

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2012, 06:02:22 pm »

I think Toady is brilliant, but at the same time, he really needs an editor.

He needs someone to prod him and keep him on track to improve the game from a gameplay and usability perspective, rather than going off and tinkering with adventure mode for years on end (or it feels that way at least). He seems to get lost on tangents, spending countless hours of time and huge amounts of effort on adding things to the game that most people will never even notice nor interact with in any way.

There are countless low hanging fruit items that can be addressed, so many relatively trivial bugs that would drastically improve gameplay or little adjustments that would hugely improve usability of the game. These improvements may also make the game more approachable, and allow a wider audience to appreciate it.


A fancy UI is a double edged sword. While the UI can make the game looks pretty and more approachable, a UI also constrains what you can do. In game, you can create a new creature or new workshop or new weapon/armor with only a few minutes of work with notepad. This is because there is really no UI, and it leaves all of the visualization in the head of the player. Much like a book actually, and books are awesome. I love DF for this reason.

The problem with a UI, is that if you have a UI, you now also need to do 3d modeling and texturing every time you want to add something new into the game or substantially change an existing item. This drastically increases the barrier to modding and also drastically increases how long it takes Toady to make any changes or additions to the game.

I personally use the Mayday graphics set, and I love it. It plays like one of those old NES games, such as Dragon Warrior. It also plays almost like an interactive book. Much of the visualization must be done within the player's head, leaving lots of room open for interpretation depending on the individual.

A UI will strip this freedom away. No longer would it be up to the person to interpret what the gameworld is like. Instead with a full UI and fancy graphics, everyone would be looking at the same thing in the same way.
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They Got Leader

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2012, 06:15:09 pm »

Yes, and editor would be nice in some cases, but the things he tweaks and works on are his own projects and toys. He likes to do what he wants when he wants, hence why he works mostly solo.

Tilesets are the UI of the future, I think. There will be tilesets every update and they will continue to be used. If you want your tileset, use it. More power to you. Don't make a visual UI standard for everyone, because the ASCII is the UI of choice for some. The ability to imagine how everything looks and works is what makes DF great, much like reading a book (I like your analogy).
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Quote from: Urist McDwarfFortress
You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

misko27

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2012, 07:37:15 pm »

He never would let it happen. Never. He just does as he likes it, and theres nothing you, or anyone, can do to stop him. If he decides goblins should be able to fly and that GCS's be able to bite through armor, thats his freaking descision. That is, of course, the final word.

So, OP, if you would mind locking the thread before it goes flame-war, I'd appreciate it.
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i2amroy

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Re: Gnomoria engine...future graphics of the fortress?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2012, 07:42:00 pm »

For all of those of you asking for graphics like that, go check out Stonesense, which is currently part of the DFHack package. Because it seriously looks exactly the same as what you are describing (new versions probably look better).
Spoiler: Example 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Example 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Example 3 (click to show/hide)

For those of you talking about true 3D graphics, keep this in mind. One of the specific reasons that Toady stopped developing Armok I was because he hated doing all of the 3D graphics updates and how much time they took, as well as preventing development from proceeding as Toady wanted it to. If graphics in DF are coming, then they won't be coming for a long time, so you might as well direct your attention to things like Stonesense, and how you could possibly contribute to making it better. (After all, Stonesense has the capability to do things like add attack animations with just a little bit of work, it's just that the creator doesn't want to spend time making the thousands of sprites required. If someone was to go out and do it for him, then he would happily be willing to work with them to implement it.)
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