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[GreatWyrmGold]

i didn't mean that Europeans slaughtered those beasts , i mean when they came with guns and other stuff , they killed wildlife for fun.

Some did. We fixed it using guilt. A lot of critters died before that.

If someone finds it morally objectionable to eat meat, he cannot discuss the subject with someone who finds it acceptable

Explain?

Good luck having a civilized debate between someone who thinks it's immoral to do something and someone who thinks it's completely moral and human to do it as well. Throw in some people able to see both sides but preferring one or the other and you have a potential !!fun!!war.

[brainfreez]

maybe one of them gets that his arguments are so invalid and wrong , then the one will be enlightened and understand how shit works .

[Loud Whispers]

If someone finds it morally objectionable to eat meat, he cannot discuss the subject with someone who finds it acceptable

Explain?

Good luck having a civilized debate between someone who thinks it's immoral to do something and someone who thinks it's completely moral and human to do it as well. Throw in some people able to see both sides but preferring one or the other and you have a potential !!fun!!war.

Dude we're human beings, you can't get us to shut up
But seriously you can get people with more conflicting views than that and it'll still be civilized. Your lack of faith is disturbing padawan.

[Helgoland]

If you're operating on different premises, you can only state them, without being able to evaluate them on an external scale - because there is no such scale.

[brainfreez]

well if you're just willing to accept stuff that you believe and nothing else , then there is no higher scale .

[GreatWyrmGold]

If someone finds it morally objectionable to eat meat, he cannot discuss the subject with someone who finds it acceptable

Explain?

Good luck having a civilized debate between someone who thinks it's immoral to do something and someone who thinks it's completely moral and human to do it as well. Throw in some people able to see both sides but preferring one or the other and you have a potential !!fun!!war.

Dude we're human beings, you can't get us to shut up
But seriously you can get people with more conflicting views than that and it'll still be civilized. Your lack of faith is disturbing padawan.

I was explaining Helgoland's statement.
And don't get me started on how civilized people can be when debating. My family had a rule against debating theology in church. I'm an expert in debating with uncivil people.

If you're operating on different premises, you can only state them, without being able to evaluate them on an external scale - because there is no such scale.

Indeed. Let's see if we can't un-derail this thread.
What was the OP talking about again?

[rarborman]

Us dwarven lords being cruel heartless monsters... thats what I got from OP.

Sad thing is most if not all people that say 'eating veggies over meat is less cruel' dont know that plants have been proven to have minor intelligence and even can do math and react to the enviroment; more or less eating the carrot or tomato on your plate is more cruel, because the plant cant trigger our cuteness neurons and has no way to not have it eaten alive by a souless vegan.

Worse yet is seeds, baby plants, unable to even have a chance to grow up and feel the sunshine.

In conclusion eating is cruel, but the way you feel about it is basicly directed to your moral nodes in your brain that desides if its 'evil' or 'good'.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Eating fruit is, of course, a lot less ethical than eating vegetables. When you eat a piece of fruit, you keep the seeds inside from ever being able to grow up! It's even worse when you eat nuts, you monster. That's like eating babies, except it's vegan!
Humans need to be cruel to survive. Deal with it, and find ways you can reduce the cruelty and not just shunt it off onto something you don't find as cute.

[Loud Whispers]

I was explaining Helgoland's statement.
And don't get me started on how civilized people can be when debating. My family had a rule against debating theology in church. I'm an expert in debating with uncivil people.

Core beliefs specifically ones about religion are one of the worst ones to discuss.

But believe it or not, humanity is still capable of discussing it civilly.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I was explaining Helgoland's statement.
And don't get me started on how civilized people can be when debating. My family had a rule against debating theology in church. I'm an expert in debating with uncivil people.

Core beliefs specifically ones about religion are one of the worst ones to discuss.

But believe it or not, humanity is still capable of discussing it civilly.

Politics aren't much better. And, from the looks of it, how civilly people can discuss seems to be a pretty hotly-discussable topic.

[Loud Whispers]

Politics aren't much better. And, from the looks of it, how civilly people can discuss seems to be a pretty hotly-discussable topic.

Well it's any two conflicting beliefs. If there's a difference, it can be discussed. Or meta-discussed.

[Joben]

Anyways, there's other reasons we keep animals, and would you want to give up sources of cheap fertilizer and such?

I'm not an expert but...
I don't think manure has been a primary source of fertilzer in the developed world in several generations. Also, according to things i've read it's more expensive than innorganic fertilizers.

Though it is probably more sustainable long term among other things.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Anyways, there's other reasons we keep animals, and would you want to give up sources of cheap fertilizer and such?

I'm not an expert but...
I don't think manure has been a primary source of fertilzer in the developed world in several generations. Also, according to things i've read it's more expensive than innorganic fertilizers.

Though it is probably more sustainable long term among other things.

I'd be surprised if cow manure could be considered expensive by any means.

[coolio678]

I like how there's been a debate about debating going on here.

[GreatWyrmGold]

No there hasn't!

Let the debate about if we were debating about debating commence, and may it spawn many other meta-meta-debates.