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Author Topic: Bring Your Own Cards: Sliver Sign "All-destroying terror flood" (game over!)  (Read 53565 times)

Toaster

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Well, crap.  I was convinced it was Tiruin and TolyK, and even went to redirect TolyK to Tiruin... but I was prioritizing Tiruin.  Damn.

Even so, I had quoted the Wandering Eye card in TolyK's claim and started to type "I don't believe this card exists..." but ended up removing it.  Got a bad case of tunnel vision.


Still wouldn't have helped unless more people went over to the TolyK case.



Good game, even though I didn't play well.




Speaking of tunnel vision, Book:  Seriously, I never agreed to a specific plan.  That's why I was convinced you were scum- you were trying to say I said something I didn't.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Think0028

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Hey, TolyK: THANKS FOR KILLING ME WITH THE CARD I WANTED. Out of curiosity, why me?

Also, why was I the only one who immediately thought 'five cards = Exodia'? Am I the only one who enjoyed Yugioh?
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If it scares people into posting, then yes.

If they end up lynched because they didn't post, oh well. Too bad for them. Maybe they should've tried posting.
Web-based Lurker Tracker for Mafia

Hapah

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I've never touched Yugioh, no.. I kinda figured it was an SK or Doomspeaker sorta thing once the cards showed up, but I thought it was UI until you showed up dead.
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I can't be expected to remember the names of everyone I've tried to stab.

Bored? Go read the EVE Chronicles.

TolyK

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No, I never played it.

And you're welcome :P you seemed like the best kill target that didn't really have anything on him and wouldn't change the balance (I liked the Wuba-Toaster-Book thing going on, so killing them would be a waste). Or read scumchat, I'm not sure if that's exactly what I was thinking.

Funny thing about "___" though. Wasn't quite sure what to do with it, so I decided to inject some WIFOM. On hindsight I should've brought a different card...
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My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

Shakerag

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Hey, TolyK: THANKS FOR KILLING ME WITH THE CARD I WANTED. Out of curiosity, why me?

Also, why was I the only one who immediately thought 'five cards = Exodia'? Am I the only one who enjoyed Yugioh?

F.I.N.A.L.

Final Countdown.

I loves me some alternate win conditions.

Bookthras

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Sorry I'm late to the post-game party. Been busy elsewhere.

First, Leafsnail: after reading the roles and actions post, I am very impressed! That was a hell of a lot of work to tune each card and each hand, and counters, tricks and strategies! Everyone's game was viable and it was really well balanced. That's some precision handiwork there! Very cool. Yes, I agree in hindsight that a couple more players, and one more day, would have been ideal, but it came out really well nonetheless.

However, a gripe: I really wish there had been a deadchat. There was only one card affecting the dead, and it didn't really make an impact. A slight change to that card power would have given us dead folk a peanut gallery to follow the game and remain engaged. I find that without a deadchat it becomes difficult after death to remain interested... one tends to just drift into other things. A deadchat for the next game will be a definite improvement.


Second, Imiknorris: your munchkinness is unparalleled. That was an amazing amount of power in only five cards. Very well thought out and played. Your managing not to be scummy on top of it was the perfect complement. Deserving victory, no doubt.

I'm guessing the general idea was that my claim was too individually powerful to be fakeclaim or a scum role.
Right, it was clear you thought out your hand before the alignments were distributed, so your basically having a steamroller didn't make you scum. It just made you unstoppable.

After wuba, much to my surprise, flipped town, my suspicions went immediately to those who also had voted him. In particular, I became suspicious of Think and UI, and Think's immediate death was welcome validation. But I couldn't really find anything to bring to bear against UI...


Finally, speaking of wuba and Toaster: far be it from me to revive a D1 argument, but I think this is important from a general game strategy point of view, and without trying to justify myself I do think the issues raised are important:
Speaking of tunnel vision, Book:  Seriously, I never agreed to a specific plan.  That's why I was convinced you were scum- you were trying to say I said something I didn't.

Categorical statement: D1 Town coordination, D1 plans, "follow the leader" (unless confirmed townie) and similar "strategies" do not work, and are the work of scum. There is only one plan that works, only one strategy that's viable, and its this:
Here's how I propose we work together: we all question people and try to identify who is scummy. Then we vote them, and present cases about why. The scummiest will be the most voted and will be lynched. During the night, play your best game with a mind to aid whoever you think is town or screw over the scum. D2, depending on results, perhaps share findings and with data reevaluate the notion of whether a plan is workable.

Anyone who tells you different is either scum, misguided, or has an ego the size of wuba's. Any other strategy relies on implicitly accepting people as town for no good reason, or sacrifices scumhunting in favour of convoluted plans and counterplans that never ever work.

So, perhaps I did have a bit of tunnel vision. My scumdar perked up when wuba strolled in and said:
Seriously, guys. What is this? This "Do whatever you want" mentality. There's a reason the "Do what I tell you" mentality works. There's a reason the "All follow the plan" mentality works. Likewise, there is a reason the "Multiple separate plans" mentality FAILS.
This is just all kinds of wrong. It was exacerbated by his tirade about trust (which is also bull, this game is emphatically not about trust), the "truth-teller" red herring, and bunch of other scummy stuff.... but then Toaster came in and said:

Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

...that started a full "red alert!" with the honking alarms and shields up and arm photon torpedoes and all that. It revived PTSD from BSER's D1 mass claim, organised by these very two, and made me make it my mission in life to see this line of thought extinguished and those who proposed it dead.

Turns out they were town. But they were still wrong: "do as I tell you" utterly sucks, "town coordination" does not work D1, "all follow the plan" mentality does not work. I feel no regret in bringing them to task for this, and will do it again in a heartbeat any time anyone suggests tripe like that on D1.


You want a plan? Here's the plan: scumhunt. You want coordination? wait until you have actual data. "Do what I tell you?" Who the fuck are you? Do not relinquish your own initiative, instincts or free will for the sake of someone whose alignment you don't know.


...sorry about the wall of text, but I feel strongly about this issue.
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No one ever listens to Zathras, no. Quite mad, they say.  |  That ain't a shepherd.

Zathras hefts the corpse-of-webadict puppet and works its mouth: "I declare world peace! Yay! All hail Zathras!"
Everyone is handsomely rewarded, and lives happily ever after.  Except for Bookthras, who dies of poison in the night.

Leafsnail

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However, a gripe: I really wish there had been a deadchat. There was only one card affecting the dead, and it didn't really make an impact. A slight change to that card power would have given us dead folk a peanut gallery to follow the game and remain engaged. I find that without a deadchat it becomes difficult after death to remain interested... one tends to just drift into other things. A deadchat for the next game will be a definite improvement.
That's true, I realised this during the course of the game.  I'll make sure there's a deadchat if there aren't strong possibilities for actual genuine revivals in future.  Thanks for the compliments though, I did put quite a lot of effort into making each role have at least a couple of interesting options.

With regards to massclaims I did intentionally put a couple of roles in that would screw over early claims (TolyK's _____ and censorship, Think's ability to grab almost your entire hand if he knows what's in it) and added a warning in the OP about it.  I think an approach like this makes sense, since an early massclaimed game tends to be dull compared to one where people can choose their own actions.
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Toaster

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I think the problem is that you assumed he intended to come up with a D1 plan, which he never actually did.  You put the cart before the horse on that one.

I do agree that D1 plans usually fail, but there are some cases (Paranormals and KotM come to mind) where town coordination works out well.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Bookthras

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Yeah, maybe I did jump the gun a bit, but that "do as I tell you" and "follow the plan" really rubbed me the wrong way and made me ultraparanoid. I really wanted to avoid another BSER type of situation.

I strongly dispute your second point, though. KotM aside (it's a really different type of game), I fail to see how "town coordination" would have or has ever worked at all in a Paranormal. No, it doesn't, or I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "coordination". The only thing to do in a Paranormal D1 is to scumhunt. Or please show me a counterexample from the last year or two where it worked in the benefit of the town.
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No one ever listens to Zathras, no. Quite mad, they say.  |  That ain't a shepherd.

Zathras hefts the corpse-of-webadict puppet and works its mouth: "I declare world peace! Yay! All hail Zathras!"
Everyone is handsomely rewarded, and lives happily ever after.  Except for Bookthras, who dies of poison in the night.

Toaster

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You did it again- I'm not talking about D1.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

webadict

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You did it again- I'm not talking about D1.
Exactly. Book, you need to learn how to read.
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Bookthras

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If it's not about D1, then don't bring it up D1. If you want to call for coordination, do it D2 onwards.

He did say "what is this?" (i.e., what people were doing, on D1) as introduction to his "all follow the plan" thing. If you mean D2, then say D2. Don't blame a guy for including when you say something as relevant context for what you say.
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No one ever listens to Zathras, no. Quite mad, they say.  |  That ain't a shepherd.

Zathras hefts the corpse-of-webadict puppet and works its mouth: "I declare world peace! Yay! All hail Zathras!"
Everyone is handsomely rewarded, and lives happily ever after.  Except for Bookthras, who dies of poison in the night.

webadict

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If it's not about D1, then don't bring it up D1. If you want to call for coordination, do it D2 onwards.

He did say "what is this?" (i.e., what people were doing, on D1) as introduction to his "all follow the plan" thing. If you mean D2, then say D2. Don't blame a guy for including when you say something as relevant context for what you say.
Except that you refused to explain that, creating a vacuum of knowledge. And I did not mean that it works on D1. Essentially, you assumed way too many things, and it screwed everyone over. Had you attempted to explain anything  there would have been much less communication error. Again, lack of working with anybody caused the downfall of Tow.n. People gotta learn that the game's one of trust.
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Bookthras

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You failed to explain it. I made my points clear. But never mind, I just wanted to clarify my position ("D1 plans are bunk"), and I did and you both agree, so that's that topic all done.

Your perceived causes for town's downfall and the "trust" thing are also bunk, but I won't get into those here. Let's let people hold their own opinions on those.
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No one ever listens to Zathras, no. Quite mad, they say.  |  That ain't a shepherd.

Zathras hefts the corpse-of-webadict puppet and works its mouth: "I declare world peace! Yay! All hail Zathras!"
Everyone is handsomely rewarded, and lives happily ever after.  Except for Bookthras, who dies of poison in the night.

webadict

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You failed to explain it. I made my points clear. But never mind, I just wanted to clarify my position ("D1 plans are bunk"), and I did and you both agree, so that's that topic all done.

Your perceived causes for town's downfall and the "trust" thing are also bunk, but I won't get into those here. Let's let people hold their own opinions on those.
Nah. I stated where you stated that I stated that D1 plans were what I were advocating. You produced no such data, yet proceeded to claim that I did advocate it. Which I didn't. Never did. But you kept saying I did. So, it was YOU that didn't explain that. I REPEATEDLY said I never did, so you made false assumptions. I made none.
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