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[MrWiggles]

You're bringing it up as a point of contention, ergo it merits it being substantiated. If the thread is about shallow bitching, then thats completely different.

[Trollheiming]

Shallow bitching, really. I don't have a healthy enough view of the chances of the petition to have substantive and on-point bitching.

[fenrif]

So when is it okay to enforce your copy rights and patents?

If the Mod Group is violating someone Copy Right, then how can WB, or Bethesda, or Tolkien Estate know in good faith that there isn't more content within the mod violating other persons intelectual works.

How do they know that the mod wont harm the brand of LOTR?

What if WB had LOTR video games in the work, and this cannibalizes sales?

Why cant the mod group gain a legal licenses to use the LOTR IP?

Why do they deserve a special exception to use someone else story world without permission?

Why can't they make their original content for their mod?

I'd argue that before adressing any of those points the coorperations should adress why no works will ever be allowed to enter the public domain ever again.

All the rules for copyright and the enforcement thereof were kind of predicated on the idea that eventually any new creation would become the property of everyone. The tradeoff being that in the meantime the original creator could wholey controll their works, and the profits that are derived from them. This benefits everyone. There are many reason why this is an agreeable solution to everyone, but the main point is the concept that eventually works become public domain. This is adressing the permeability of creative works, especially fictional narratives and characters, within our shared culture.

That said, in answer to your questions:

(Copyrights and patents are two completely different things. I'll adress copyrights because I'm not overly familiar with patents)
Legally: whenever and whereever in any situation and with hyperbolic punishments that far outwiegh the severity of the crime because of projections based on imagined revenue losses.
Morally: When someone else is trying to profit off your work and it shouldn't allready be public domain

I don't know? This is a wierd question. Why would any of those entities care if this mod is violating any rights but their own? The mod could violate every copyright that exists and it wouldn't effect WB's decision in any way AFAIK?

They either assume that it will or don't care and are just agressively defending their licensing rights regardless. Though the idea that a fan-created work can harm a brand seems completely ludicrous to me, especially in this specific case when we're discussing a 70 year old franchise that's hugely entrenched in our pop-culture.

Again, this is one of those ludicrous claims that companies try to make. They often say the same thing of piracy even though it's been proven wrong time and again. This is another one of those hypothetical questions that doesn't really seem relevant. The real question is "Is there any way this fan-made no-budget mod can in any way effect the sales of an officially licensed game."

The mod group could probobly gain the license to use the LoTR IP. If they had millions of dollars and providing the WB license isn't exclusive. Then you also get into the question of which LoTR video game license do they want? The book adaption games and the movie adaption games are two seperate licenses (or at least they were last time I checked). Basically it's prohibitavely expensive for individuals to license multimillion dollar IP's. There might be some method where they can ask for approval for their work, which would exempt them from the licensing or provide an extremely limited license, but I'm not overly familiar with that and as far as I know it's entirely a goodwill thing for the companies that do it.

Because the story world from LoTR was first published in like 1934 or thereabouts and should be public domain. Why does the Tolkein estate deserve a special exemption from the laws of public domain?

People like to pay omage to things they are fans of? Why do so many people write fanfics, draw fan art, hum songs that they didn't personally make up? Why do the people at WB movie studios and the esteemed Mr Jackson not make up their own fantasy movie? Why did they need to use someone elses content?

A better question would be "Why is Peter Jackson the only movie director allowed to create LoTR movies?" Is it because he's rich? Is there something in his previous work (Bad Taste maybe?) that somehow qualifies him for the transition of the most influential fantasy novel of the last century to cinema? Is it because he's from New Zealand?

[Shadowlord]

Pretty sure The Hobbit did have its copyright extended, whereas for example, there is no evidence that any of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu works ever had theirs extended, so those are all almost certainly in the public domain by now.

[fenrif]

Pretty sure The Hobbit did have its copyright extended, whereas for example, there is no evidence that any of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu works ever had theirs extended, so those are all almost certainly in the public domain by now.

AFAIK the copyright of Lovecraft's works is in contention? From what I can remember it's something like anything published before 1923 I think (Might have the year wrong there) is public domain, but anything after isn't. Though even then there's some confusion because of changes made to copyright law since then. I know The Call of Cthulhu and Mountains of Madness were some of the works which were contended.

Though H.P Lovecraft works are a pretty terrible example of copyright law for a whole host of reasons. He did that thing where any writer could freely use anything in any of his works, there were all kinds of problems with his will and who inherited his writings, and he was generally much more generous with his work than other writers.

[Sergius]

It's the process of locking up culture. When we are all older and want to look back at the works and arts that shaped our youth, we won't be able to find anything that is not "authorized" to show to our descendants. While the original copyright was supposed to last 14 years, plus another 14 years if renewed ONCE, nowadays copyright lasts forever. Life + 70, whatever. Guess what happens when a lot of works reach that? Yes, extreme lobbying causes copyright to be rewritten, retroactively, so it will last Life + 140. Then Life + 999.

You think it won't happen? It just happened. THIS YEAR.

If not LotR, then The Hobbit was ALREADY in the public domain. It got STOLEN back from the PD, sometime early this year. The next time you ask anyone if it is "fair" that people can "take" someone's Imaginary Property, which will cause them to lose some fictional potential revenue and prevent them from milking it from all it's worth at Any Cost, ask yourself, is THIS fair?

Then someone will say "the Law is the Law!". Yes, that's correct. The Law is the Law, and it has changed to favor the few at the expense of the public, OVER AND OVER. Those chosen "elites" decided that the Law sucked because it didn't suit them, so they fought to change it, with lots of greasing of palms. And any attempt from the public to protest this, is answered by "hey, this is what the law says! you can't change the law! Stop trying! It's wrong and unfair!"

That's why stuff like this matters. Even if Lord of the Rings isn't in the Public Domain, it sure as hell should have been.

Consider this: a lot of classical works were based on works of other. A lot of Shakespeare was pretty much copied from others, or older works, or plagiarized directly from his competitors, yet he is considered an important figure in English literature. Funny how that works, huh?

[Neonivek]

Did you know Sergius that there are some companies out there that make absolutely no products of their own... whos ONLY purpose is to copyright things and to sue people?

Mind you that could be a myth.

[Sergius]

Did you know Sergius that there are some companies out there that make absolutely no products of their own... whos ONLY purpose is to copyright things and to sue people?

Mind you that could be a myth.

Actually that's patents. You kinda need to have something (a novel, music) to have copyright. But you can make up any crap and patent it (the patent office WILL approve it, and if it doesn't, you resubmit it immediately and it WILL approve it). And even if it has no merit, merely the litigation costs make you settle, since these so-called "Copyright Trolls" have zero assets themselves and nothing to lose even if they lost a lawsuit.

There was this thing about a shady company called Righthaven and the Las Vegas Review-Journal, which apparently a lot of people quoted in their articles. They "acquired" the copyrights just so they could sue all those people. It didn't go well.

[tootboot]

Neither internet petitions or boycotts are going to do anything about this, really.

Gotta suck it up and move on.

[alexandertnt]

So when is it okay to enforce your copy rights and patents?

If the Mod Group is violating someone Copy Right, then how can WB, or Bethesda, or Tolkien Estate know in good faith that there isn't more content within the mod violating other persons intelectual works.

If it is violating copyright, then I dont see how the possibility it might violate different copyright is relevant. (This "different copyright" is a seperate issue, that and those parties are not concerned with the team breaking copyright that is not relevant to them).

How do they know that the mod wont harm the brand of LOTR?

They don't. Copyright's do not exist to merely stop brands from being "harmed" (Otherwise critics would have a hard life). Besides, I dont see how this mod is harming LOTR (Given the enthusiasm for it). Also there is a difference between harming LOTR and harming WB.

What if WB had LOTR video games in the work, and this cannibalizes sales?

Then the mod is more fun then the WB game? Seriously, this seems like a valid point to use when arguing to reduce copyright restrictions.

Why cant the mod group gain a legal licenses to use the LOTR IP?

Statement pretty much invokes this.

Why do they deserve a special exception to use someone else story world without permission?

It woudn't/shoudn't/isn't be a special excemption. The argument here is either A) What they are doing is actually legal, or B) If its not, it should be. In both cases it would apply to others in a similar situation.

Why can't they make their original content for their mod?

They could, but I dont believe they should back down simply because some lawer-loaded company is breathing down their necks. One of the issues I have with copyright law is it basically scare's people away from stuff that would otherwise be legal.

Neither internet petitions or boycotts are going to do anything about this, really.

Gotta suck it up and move on.

If everyone thought like this, no one would do anything since they know no one would do anything because no one would do anything and so on. Just because it seems futile is not reason not to try something, it's probably reason to try harder.

[fenrif]

Neither internet petitions or boycotts are going to do anything about this, really.

Gotta suck it up and move on.

Too true. What's that quote? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results?" That's internet petitions. I don't think a single one has ever accomplished anything.

[alexandertnt]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results?"

To quote a friend:

"Einstein obviously never used a computer"

[Sergius]

They don't. Copyright's do not exist to merely stop brands from being "harmed" (Otherwise critics would have a hard life). Besides, I dont see how this mod is harming LOTR (Given the enthusiasm for it). Also there is a difference between harming LOTR and harming WB.

The real "harm" is that someone is doing something that people enjoy, and money isn't being funneled into the copyrestriction holders' fat bank accounts as a result.

Neither internet petitions or boycotts are going to do anything about this, really.

Gotta suck it up and move on.

Too true. What's that quote? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results?" That's internet petitions. I don't think a single one has ever accomplished anything.

While it may sound defeatist, it's got a point. An actual way that WORKS is to inspire tons of outrage on Twitter. And I mean tons. Like with that pub called the Hobbit, or that website that basically contacted Kindle book owners to others who wanted to lend books (legally, via Amazon) and basically become the lynchmob target of dozens of authors, or the Hugo awards that got censored because all that copyright lobbying forced a company to install a robot that detected ANY copyright use (authorized or not) and suspend the accounts, or whatever other PR nightmares that have caused megacorps to back down. It's hard to get that kind of exposure for a little nonprofit mod, though.

Still, gotta try. But something with a little more "teeth" than an internet Petition would be preferable. Total character assassination, for example.

[casserol]

juste a little upping of the thread , cuz i read a comment on an article on the escapist that made me lol :

"So basically, "We may not be able to do anything worthwhile with the LotR license, but we're sure as hell gonna see to it that nobody else does either!"

[Sergius]

Still, gotta try. But something with a little more "teeth" than an internet Petition would be preferable. Total character assassination, for example.

just character assasination?

remove the character, I'm fine

but yeah, the only way for this to work is to build up a fucking HUGE shitstorm, whereupon they go 'wait, most people aren't backing us! OH TEH NOES!'

Exactly

I heard places like Reddit and 4chan are great for that kind of "coordinated" effort...