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Author Topic: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)  (Read 3569 times)

dominusnovus

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Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:48:36 am »

Hi all,

I've got some ideas that I want to throw out there; some of them have relevant threads already, but I can't decide which the total sum would go best in, so I figured I'd put them all in one new thread.  Hope I'm not cluttering things up too much.   So, in general, I would love to see the workshop system expanded.  Plenty of suggestions exist for how to make workshops individually better (making them furniture-designated rooms and other ideas).  What I'd like to see is more interplay in the entire system, through the creation of more workshops and the ability to power more of them with water/wind wheels.

I'll start with the powered workshop idea.  Pretty simple: I want to see as many workshops as possible be able to be hooked up to your power system, for increased efficiency and quality.  Furnaces and asheries could benefit from powered billows; forges could also benefit from trip hammers.  Screw presses could be powered, carpentry shops could have powered saws, leather shops would have trip hammers as well.  Etc. and so on.  I don't know if it would be easier to just create a powered version of each workshop (similar to querns/millstones), or if it would just make more sense to apply a bonus to those shops that have been hooked up to your power supply.  Either way, I just want to see a use for all those waterwheels I enjoy running down my fortress.  As a clarification, when I list the powered components (billows, trip hammers, etc.), I'm not calling for additional components to be used to build the workshops, just listing the real life use for power in such shops.

As far as more workshops, its pretty straightforward; I'd like to see the industrial process somewhat more realistic and requiring more steps.  A good example is agriculture, particularly alcohol production.  At the moment, everything's done in a still.  And each applicable crop only produces one type of drink.  I would add a new workshop, a brewery/fermentation shop.  In this shop, you could produce wine and beer.  To produce wine, you'd have to first press the applicable crop (plump helmets or the various berries) into their applicable juice (I suppose, in a pinch, your dwarves could drink the juice, but it shouldn't be any better than water; perhaps even give them an unhappy thought for wasting potential booze), and then the juice could be fermented into the relevant wine.  The various grains could be fermented into beer without a press, but would need potable water added instead.  If we wanted to add a little complexity, we could also have the initial product be 'green' beer/wine, which would need to rest and age for awhile to be proper for consumption (though, again, it could be consumed in a pinch, probably as appetizing as sewer brew currently).  Perhaps it could be something like the inverse of the rotting system currently.  Or just a task at the brewery (one task to brew green beer/wine, and another task to age them).

Meanwhile, proper spirits (whiskey, rum, vodka, brandy) would be produced at a still, which would now require fuel (more on that later) to operate and would process, instead of raw crops as is currently, the wine and beer you've already brewed (if the 'green' system is included, it would be these that you would distill, not the final product).  As these products would have a higher alcohol content and require more work, they'd also, appropriately, have a much higher beverage value.

So, in short, the alcohol industry would be more realistic, more complex, and would allow for a greater variety of drinks (as every edible crop could have a fermented drink and a higher quality distilled drink).  Other industries could similarly benefit (but who cares about them?).

In closing, the most important thing to take away from all my ideas is this:  If the alcohol industry is expanded as I suggested, we can have the ultimate expression of everything that is dear to dwarves.  We could build...
MAGMA STILLS.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 12:51:56 pm by dominusnovus »
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Beardedwander

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 02:17:25 pm »

Quote
MAGMA STILLS
!!FUND IT!!


In all seriousness though powered higher efficiency workshops sound like a great idea. This would go particularly well with more flexible workshop design (see: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=26178.0) as we could have powered machines shared by multiple Dwarves each with their own workstation.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 04:17:53 pm »

Alright, I'll go over the things you suggested one by one.
Powered workshops: Sure. You'd probably need a specially-made workshop (probably including mechanisms), though. Also, workplace accidents with spinning sawblades and such should be implemented along with spinning sawblades in workshops.
I'm not sure about dwarves getting bad thoughts about drinking juice; when drinking grape juice, do you feel sad about not being able to turn it into wine? Frankly, dwarves should like plump helmet juice more than water, and "green" wine or beer more than juice. I guess there would need to be separate materials for green and normal alcohol.
Magma stills sound stupid but dwarfy. Maybe magma kitchens should also be implemented.
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 04:38:06 pm »

Alright, I'll go over the things you suggested one by one.
Powered workshops: Sure. You'd probably need a specially-made workshop (probably including mechanisms), though. Also, workplace accidents with spinning sawblades and such should be implemented along with spinning sawblades in workshops.

Workplace accidents would be pretty awesome, I must say.  It would be a shame if every single power-able workshop would need a powered counterpart; seems like it would clog up the menu a bit.

I'm not sure about dwarves getting bad thoughts about drinking juice; when drinking grape juice, do you feel sad about not being able to turn it into wine? Frankly, dwarves should like plump helmet juice more than water, and "green" wine or beer more than juice. I guess there would need to be separate materials for green and normal alcohol.

It was mainly a throw-away idea, more of a comment on how important alcohol is to dwarven society (like the end of the wiki page on milling).  Green wine/beer should certainly satisfy the dwarf's desire for alcohol, but it should be the lowest quality possible (though, if I'm correct, beverage quality only matters insofar as it relates to trade at the moment, correct?  I'd like to see that different).  The point of green vs. true drinks is really just to represent the time needed to properly age them, a key aspect for any alcohol.

Magma stills sound stupid but dwarfy. Maybe magma kitchens should also be implemented.

Magma kitchens would be worth pursuing.  Magma stills, on the other hand, would be the epitome of any Dwarven civilization.

On a related note, I really think that trading is to easy; I'd like to see prices scaled up much further depending on how much work is put in to produce them.  Combined with a more expansive and intricate production system, I think this would allow (possibly even require) more emphasis on specialization in the forts in order to meet the needs of the residents.
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 04:40:45 pm »

Quote
MAGMA STILLS
!!FUND IT!!


In all seriousness though powered higher efficiency workshops sound like a great idea. This would go particularly well with more flexible workshop design (see: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=26178.0) as we could have powered machines shared by multiple Dwarves each with their own workstation.

Oh, thats a great idea!  With room-based workshops (if I'm reading your reply correctly), they could potentially incorporate a gear assembly, which would then make that workshop power-able.  Yay, idea synergy.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 05:07:38 pm »

It would be a shame if every single power-able workshop would need a powered counterpart; seems like it would clog up the menu a bit.
Maybe. No more than having a magma option for every furnace is, probably, especially with hotkeys and the probability that not all workshops will have powered options. How much good would autohammers be for much of anything? Autoknives might be good for murder, but not for butchery or cleaning skin or fish. And so on.

Quote
I'm not sure about dwarves getting bad thoughts about drinking juice; when drinking grape juice, do you feel sad about not being able to turn it into wine? Frankly, dwarves should like plump helmet juice more than water, and "green" wine or beer more than juice. I guess there would need to be separate materials for green and normal alcohol.
Green wine/beer should certainly satisfy the dwarf's desire for alcohol, but it should be the lowest quality possible (though, if I'm correct, beverage quality only matters insofar as it relates to trade at the moment, correct?  I'd like to see that different).  The point of green vs. true drinks is really just to represent the time needed to properly age them, a key aspect for any alcohol.
Value also affects how much dwarves like drinking it, IIRC. Sunshine gives better thoughts than sewer brew, conclusivey proving that dwarves do not hate all good things or everything from the surface.
The note about additional materials was one that a modder would understand better than a non-modder, as are the explanations I could give. Which are you?

Quote
On a related note, I really think that trading is to easy; I'd like to see prices scaled up much further depending on how much work is put in to produce them.  Combined with a more expansive and intricate production system, I think this would allow (possibly even require) more emphasis on specialization in the forts in order to meet the needs of the residents.
Well, it would have to be a per-unit thing; it takes a lot more effort to make a shoe factory than a cobbler's bench, but the shoe factory makes a lot more shoes. Something like this is probably planned.
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2012, 07:18:27 pm »

It would be a shame if every single power-able workshop would need a powered counterpart; seems like it would clog up the menu a bit.
Maybe. No more than having a magma option for every furnace is, probably, especially with hotkeys and the probability that not all workshops will have powered options. How much good would autohammers be for much of anything? Autoknives might be good for murder, but not for butchery or cleaning skin or fish. And so on.

Well, that right there illustrates the issue.  Take a forge, for example.  There would be a powered version and a non-powered version.  There's also a magma version and a non-magma version.  So, where would a powered magma version fit in?

Also, an auto hammer would basically be a trip hammer; a very useful device for a forge.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 08:34:14 pm »

If the game were to move over to zone-based workshops it could be solved quite easily by adding 2 constructions for mechanism- and magmapowering the zone. You'd simply have to lead magma or power in, then place something equivalent of a gear assembly next to it/on top of it and the dwarf furnishing the workshop zone would automatically hook up whatever abstracted work equipment (smelters/forges/sawmills etc) they need next to it.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 08:39:32 pm »

It would be a shame if every single power-able workshop would need a powered counterpart; seems like it would clog up the menu a bit.
Maybe. No more than having a magma option for every furnace is, probably, especially with hotkeys and the probability that not all workshops will have powered options. How much good would autohammers be for much of anything? Autoknives might be good for murder, but not for butchery or cleaning skin or fish. And so on.

Well, that right there illustrates the issue.  Take a forge, for example.  There would be a powered version and a non-powered version.  There's also a magma version and a non-magma version.  So, where would a powered magma version fit in?

Also, an auto hammer would basically be a trip hammer; a very useful device for a forge.

I'll freely admit to not having much of a clue about forging, aside from watching someone make a nail like they would back in the 18th century colonies recently, but it seems that forging something, especially a sword, requires a bit of dexterity and precision that a hammer pounding away unceasingly in the same exact way every few seconds would lack. I'll grant that power could have its uses in forging--bellows, certainly--but I'm not sure if a hammer, specifically, would help.
As to powered magma furnaces, you answered your own question. Heck, maybe there would be a separate powered workshops tab under the buildings menu (or the buildings-workshops submenu, pick your poison).
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2012, 09:19:05 pm »

It would be a shame if every single power-able workshop would need a powered counterpart; seems like it would clog up the menu a bit.
Maybe. No more than having a magma option for every furnace is, probably, especially with hotkeys and the probability that not all workshops will have powered options. How much good would autohammers be for much of anything? Autoknives might be good for murder, but not for butchery or cleaning skin or fish. And so on.

Well, that right there illustrates the issue.  Take a forge, for example.  There would be a powered version and a non-powered version.  There's also a magma version and a non-magma version.  So, where would a powered magma version fit in?

Also, an auto hammer would basically be a trip hammer; a very useful device for a forge.

I'll freely admit to not having much of a clue about forging, aside from watching someone make a nail like they would back in the 18th century colonies recently, but it seems that forging something, especially a sword, requires a bit of dexterity and precision that a hammer pounding away unceasingly in the same exact way every few seconds would lack. I'll grant that power could have its uses in forging--bellows, certainly--but I'm not sure if a hammer, specifically, would help.
As to powered magma furnaces, you answered your own question. Heck, maybe there would be a separate powered workshops tab under the buildings menu (or the buildings-workshops submenu, pick your poison).

A separate menu, as opposed to a sub-menu, would certainly be a good solution.  As for trip hammers, they've been used in forges as long as there have been waterwheels (so, for 2000 years, both in the Greco Roman civilizations and the Han Chinese Empire).  Wikipedia has a good page on trip hammers, including a video demonstrating how they're used.  The smith moves the metal around as needed.
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 09:21:27 pm »

If the game were to move over to zone-based workshops it could be solved quite easily by adding 2 constructions for mechanism- and magmapowering the zone. You'd simply have to lead magma or power in, then place something equivalent of a gear assembly next to it/on top of it and the dwarf furnishing the workshop zone would automatically hook up whatever abstracted work equipment (smelters/forges/sawmills etc) they need next to it.

Absolutely correct.  A magma-stove or something as one piece of furniture, a gear box as another (built from a mechanism), and whatever other pieces would be needed.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 09:32:46 pm »

I had never heard of trip-hammers. They sounded...wait for it...trippy to me. If Wikipedia is reliable, you may have a point there.

How would you use power to help cook? Mechanical power, mind you, not electrical.
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dominusnovus

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2012, 10:40:43 pm »

I had never heard of trip-hammers. They sounded...wait for it...trippy to me. If Wikipedia is reliable, you may have a point there.

How would you use power to help cook? Mechanical power, mind you, not electrical.

If you've ever got some time to kill, I highly recommend looking up the old Connections series by James Burke (they're on youtube).  One episode goes into some depth about the medieval industrial revolution, going on about the value of the cam and trip hammer for various tasks.

I don't think cooking would benefit directly from mechanical power (even now, most of cooking is the combination manual labor and heat), though I do think it should use fuel/magma.

Just brainstorming here on adding some meat to the industry system.

Add a sawmill workshop, to process logs into timber.  This could be powered (rotating power to run either a rotating saw or a crank for a reciprocating saw).  Bowyers and carpenters would use timber for their products.

There aren't too many other tier 1 shops that would have use for power; though a farmer's shop could use heat for some of its products perhaps.

A tanner's shop could use power (trip hammers to pound out leather).  A loom definitely could be powered, as could a forge, as previously mentioned.

For tier 3, both a leather works and clothier's shop could be powered, but that might be too close to a proper industrial revolution for the setting (the automation of such textile work pretty much *was* the industrial revolution).

And, of course, anything that involves heat should require fuel or magma (kitchen, still, soap shop).
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Industrial Expansion Suggestions (more alcohol!)
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2012, 10:54:55 pm »

Sounds good, and I agree that looms and such shouldn't be powered. Limit it to 1400's, people, Toady said that's the cutoff. Somewhere. It's quoted a lot.
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