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[darkrider2]

The gaslamp guys said even though they love DF a lot, they wanted it to be playable. Dumbing down isn't inherently a bad thing, and a simpler interface is actually better than a complex one. Plus those guys love DF, so I'm totally cool with them since they're making something awesome.

I probably should have written that previous post as. 1) They see DF as profit potential OR 2) They are inspired by DF.

Gaslamp are totally in the second camp.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

gnomoria is a very young game, so what i'll say probably isn't too fair and won't stay true very long. i don't have a problem when a game tries to copy df and then build something more on it, but i don't see gnomoria doing that. besides adding the spiffy graphics(which added another level of awkwardness to the interface) and a very nice in game version of dwarf thereapist, they haven't done much besides copying df

[tolkafox]

I think the real argument is being missed here:

Everyone owes royalties to pong. Pay up.

[misko27]

I realy expect that as DF gats more complicated, eventually the rip-offs will either have to be so much more complicated then they are now, to keep up with him, or alot simpler, to avoid losing players who want fun, just not !!FUN!!

In one way, They will be so close to DF thaqt toady will be able to accuse them of copying, and with serious ability to do so considering how close they are, or they'll be so different, they won't matter.

[Old Bones]

I upvoted the game on Greenlight. I want to see more variations on the DFlike.

[vertinox]

I find it highly immoral how the major points of describing a DF are exactly what gnomoria is. My problem is the developing team is trying to make money out of it without paying royaltys to toady. I havent played it but a look through pictures and descriptions says to me that it is a rip-off and credit needs to go where credit is due. I understand the arguement that it helps DF's popularity. BUT the purpose of the game are not to do so. The purpose is to make money and that is where I draw the line.

The US courts have determined that you can copyright the art work of a game and the source code but you can't copyright the rules of a game. In fact, it is 100% legal to make a copy of the board game Monopoly by Hasboro as long as you change the artwork, rename everything different names, and use different game pieces.

In that respect is good because otherwise we would have seen Nintendo sue any platformer game simply because it had the same ruleset as Mario Bros.

In fact someone could make an ASCII game of DF as long as they used their own source code and it would still be legal.

[thvaz]

Or maybe they "dumb down" the games because a lot of people doesn't actually care about the level of depth of DF (and here I would like to link to an article from David Baumgart, art director from Gaslamp Games. They are currently working on clockwork empire, another "DF ripoff": http://www.gaslampgames.com/2010/07/16/game-design-dialectic-dwarf-fortress-and-goblin-camp/ ), and at the end of the day, who want the depth of DF can always play Dwarf Fortress (WOW, right!?).

The gaslamp guys said even though they love DF a lot

Did you read that article? That guy don't like DF.  Goblin Camp is almost dead - almost a year without updates, and the update was just a little bugfix. DF is still going strong. Which model was the best?

Despise they saying now that they love DF, they do so to not allienate our playerbase. I have the impression every game developer out there hates Toady.

[Greendogo]

I have the impression every game developer out there hates Toady.

I don't get that impression at all.  I think Toady has been one of the developers at the forefront of the crowdsourcing movement.  His entire income now is based off of donations from a dedicated community.  Notch surely owes a lot to Toady's trailblazing, not only of the game elements he borrowed or improved upon for Minecraft, but I also think Toady and his brother showed indie game developers how to be rock-stars; how to create a fan base not only for the game, but for the man/team involved in making the game.

I doubt Doublefine's kickstarter would have happened if not for Toady's pioneering work on non-traditional methods of income and funding.

The same goes for the Wasteland 2 guys.  And Gnomoria, and all the Minecraft knockoffs and the DF-likes, and ADOM's Indiegogo campaign.

Bay12 definitely does not deserved to be hated by indie game devs, because he has opened up such a lucrative and abundantly endless demand for non-traditional game production.

[darkflagrance]

I know little about the programmer/developer, but I'm a fan of burningpet's graphic design work, if he is still affiliated with the project. I'm still hoping and waiting for Gnomoria to distinguish itself so clearly from Dwarf Fortress that threads disputing its legitimacy have to back done from the innovations the game adds to the genre.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

burningpet is working on towns.

[darkflagrance]

burningpet is working on towns.

Oh, I see. I knew that there had been a change of artists but didn't know more than that. Thanks!

[alexandertnt]

I realy expect that as DF gats more complicated, eventually the rip-offs will either have to be so much more complicated then they are now, to keep up with him, or alot simpler, to avoid losing players who want fun, just not !!FUN!!

These games are not tied to DF's development like that. They have created their own game (with influence from DF) and they will make their game more/less complicated/different-in-some-other-way as they see fit, not tied to DF's complexity. That is, they are not trying to "keep up" with anybody.

In one way, They will be so close to DF thaqt toady will be able to accuse them of copying, and with serious ability to do so considering how close they are, or they'll be so different, they won't matter.

Copying what? The level of complexity of the game? You can not own the concept of a complex game. As I said earlier - there is no legal issue here. No copying of any IP has taken place.

[reality.auditor]

Another retarded thread about OMG!!!111 DF ripoff gather mob with pithforks!!...

Ripoffs are legal. Get over it.

[darkrider2]

Or maybe they "dumb down" the games because a lot of people doesn't actually care about the level of depth of DF (and here I would like to link to an article from David Baumgart, art director from Gaslamp Games. They are currently working on clockwork empire, another "DF ripoff": http://www.gaslampgames.com/2010/07/16/game-design-dialectic-dwarf-fortress-and-goblin-camp/ ), and at the end of the day, who want the depth of DF can always play Dwarf Fortress (WOW, right!?).

The gaslamp guys said even though they love DF a lot

Did you read that article? That guy don't like DF.  Goblin Camp is almost dead - almost a year without updates, and the update was just a little bugfix. DF is still going strong. Which model was the best?

Despise they saying now that they love DF, they do so to not allienate our playerbase. I have the impression every game developer out there hates Toady.

Okay A) Gaslamp doesn't run goblin camp and B) I was specifically talking about the current gaslamp game being developed called clockwork empires. Which has been stated to have taken some inspirations from DF, the gaslamp guys loved DF enough to where one of the devs actually officially posted inside our forums on the thread I linked.

Everyone hates Toady? Don't make me laugh.

[thvaz]

Or maybe they "dumb down" the games because a lot of people doesn't actually care about the level of depth of DF (and here I would like to link to an article from David Baumgart, art director from Gaslamp Games. They are currently working on clockwork empire, another "DF ripoff": http://www.gaslampgames.com/2010/07/16/game-design-dialectic-dwarf-fortress-and-goblin-camp/ ), and at the end of the day, who want the depth of DF can always play Dwarf Fortress (WOW, right!?).

The gaslamp guys said even though they love DF a lot

Did you read that article? That guy don't like DF.  Goblin Camp is almost dead - almost a year without updates, and the update was just a little bugfix. DF is still going strong. Which model was the best?

Despise they saying now that they love DF, they do so to not allienate our playerbase. I have the impression every game developer out there hates Toady.

Okay A) Gaslamp doesn't run goblin camp and B) I was specifically talking about the current gaslamp game being developed called clockwork empires. Which has been stated to have taken some inspirations from DF, the gaslamp guys loved DF enough to where one of the devs actually officially posted inside our forums on the thread I linked.

Everyone hates Toady? Don't make me laugh.

Read the link (that is hosted on the Gaslamp) it is one of the heaviest criticism of DF I ever saw (besides the "OMG there is no grafx this game sux" crowd). I didn't say they run Goblin Camp, but the link is about DF and Goblin Camp.
I didn't said everyone hates Toady. You need to work on your reading skills. But the various episodes of people who somehow get angry at DF development decisions and then go to design their own DF-like is astounding (it didn't look to be the case of Towns and Gnomoria, though).