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Author Topic: BM XXXVI: The Dirge of the Dead -- Scum Victory!  (Read 85985 times)

markressler

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2012, 06:39:07 pm »

[non-Dariush] IC's, I'd like some insight into the merits and pitfalls of a D1 lynch for the town in this setup.  Seven of us have a one-in four chance of picking a scum; should we act on D1 or not? 
  • Best case, we nail scum and the game gets weird, assisted 6 v 1 on D2.
  • Worst case, we nail a townie power role and drop to a dangerous, unassisted 5 v 2 on D2.
  • Average situation, though, is we go into D2 with an assisted 5 v 2, hopefully with a cop having picked or cleared a critical player on N1 and surviving.

Is that better than just going 6 v 2 on D2?  I'm definitely EC in this regard and would love to hear your analysis.

6 v 2? You meant 5 v 2?

Oh, wait. Nevermind.
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Nerjin

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #91 on: September 04, 2012, 06:51:15 pm »

-snip-
Nerjin: You're pretty quick with that FoS... Is it the OMGUSFoS?
-snip-
No. It’s simply the fact that I don’t know what everyone else is.  Over time the suspicion will fade replaced by knowledge.
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The demon code prevents me from declining a rock-off challenge.

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kingfisher1112

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #92 on: September 04, 2012, 06:58:44 pm »

Very sorry, I was sleeping. Don't have time for a full read, but remember, instead of just continuing to gather info on one dude who is very scummy, continue to gather info.
Nerjin: To answer your question on page 4. Those are dangerous and difficult questions to answer, and I think it gleans good information more so then " Do you like turtles" It's heavy shit. Asking " What would you do in X situation" again does little.
Shakerag: I would try and vote someone else. Voting the cop head on is dangerous, I'd go for a Nightkill.

I'm not jumping on the EasyLynchMobile yet. I have somewhere to be very soon.
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Nerjin

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #93 on: September 04, 2012, 07:04:33 pm »

-snip-
Nerjin: To answer your question on page 4. Those are dangerous and difficult questions to answer, and I think it gleans good information more so then " Do you like turtles" It's heavy shit. Asking " What would you do in X situation" again does little.
-snip-

-snip-
Nerjin: If you were mafia, who would you kill?
-snip-

Fair enough. I do like turtles by the way. But I suppose if I had to pick right this second who I would lynch as mafia it would be you. Mainly because you keep asking me questions so I'd want to avoid attention as much as possible. Now kingfisher who is your top suspect right now? Who would you be most afraid of if you were mafia?
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vodot

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #94 on: September 04, 2012, 07:11:12 pm »

<Lynch on D1>

Hapah, you da man, that's what I was looking for.

Not quite. The question does in fact, have a point.

So what was it, Wrex?
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wsoxfan

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #95 on: September 04, 2012, 08:46:21 pm »

wsoxfan: It's N1 and you're a doc.  Your top scumpick was lynched, and you have pretty poor reads on everyone else.  Re-reading through the thread, what do you look for to help you decide who to protect?
I'd look to see which group of people seems to be interacting the least. While on D2 that's not a certain giveaway, it helps to narrow it down. From there, I look at each person in the possible group(or mulitple) and see who was bandwagoning, or simply laying low. I'd then make a case from there.
wsoxfan It's D2, you are cop. Doc was lynched D1 or killed N2. Everybody's voting you. Do you claim?
I wouldn't roleclaim unless I had good reason too, as it's D2 it would largely be seen as a scummy move, which wouldn't be helping my case at all.
Wrex
@Mark: Why do people bandwagon in the first place? I would join a bandwagon, and only If I was absolutely assured of that person's guilt.
You essentially answered your own question without answering Marks. Is this a question that you would like to leave unanswered for later in the game?
Quote
Now, the misinformation I am concerned about is your...agressive? interogation style. You are fingering everybody when at this stage of the game, such an agressive approach does nothing but draw attention to yourself.
Shouldn't he want to finger everyone? That in itself isn't aggresive. It's what he should be doing at this point in the game. Is there any reason why he would want others to scumhunt for him? Also, why haven't you been asking more people questions? Are you satisfied that you've found sucm, Wrex?
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Tiruin

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane. Replacement Needed!
« Reply #96 on: September 04, 2012, 09:32:05 pm »

All, major apologies, but I'm Requesting Replacement.  This weekend IRL rose up and bit me in the ass to the point where I'm not going to be able to play a high-quality game for at least two months.
((Erp. I blame timezones and sleep stopping me from entertaining this.))

"Hey, peasant! Yes you! Could you fetch me a refreshment?"

"You can do that? We're in the middle of a trial!"

"There's nothing stating I can't do that."


blackmagechill has been sent a PM for replacing vodot.

Awaiting confirmation.




(Sorry if I'm intruding, Tir!)
Have some of Phantom of the Library's popcorn.
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Tiruin

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #97 on: September 04, 2012, 09:35:29 pm »

”Tarry not, waste not.
Time is precious, and as countless as the sand in the sea.
Everything has it's time.”

“What the hell is this? Who are these people?!”
“Calm down Sir Knight! Maybe it’s a code of some sort?”
“A code with Arabic numbers? Arabic numbers?! Look at this man’s name!”
“Err, that would be me.”

As the knights bickered, they failed to notice the parchment moving on it’s own volition despite being struck to the table by a dagger.

”Hello there!”

The light, mellow voice caught their attention.

“Who in blazes said that? I-…You have to be kidding. What is this?”
”I’m the map!”
“You’re a sheet of parchment.”
”I’m an enchanted sheet of parchment...

“As my master is busy calming the peasants, I’ll be keeping mark of all your votes. Your real names have been disguised, so if you somehow die here, your house and family won’t be held to shame. Yes, an Arab made me and sold me, a bargain really, about seventy p-”


But the knights were back to their bickering, leaving the ol’ sheet of paper talking to itself in the background.



Quote from: Vote standings:

  • Nerjin (0) -
  • wsoxfan (0) -
  • Kamin (0) -
  • kingfisher1112 (0) -
  • markressler (1) - Kamin
  • vodot (1) - Wrex
  • Wrex (1) - Shakerag
  • Jim Groovester (0) -
  • Shakerag (0) -

Not voting: Nerjin, wsoxfan, kingfisher1112, markressler, vodot, Jim Groovester


((Day 1 will end at September 7, 2012 [Friday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker! Under momentary reconstruction and maintenance!))
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:38:46 pm by Tiruin »
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Wrex

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2012, 10:05:13 pm »

It's true, I haven't asked many questions. I personally thought I answered Mark's question precisely, so the answer would be "prefer to join bandwagon".

The point of the question I addresed to you, Vodot? I needed to assess your level of trust, although trust in a game of mafia is much like a carp on fire.
Now, I would disagree that fingering everyone is a good idea. You will simnply get more stress responses from unskilled players. If you are going for a shot in the dark, which at some point we will have to make, then why would you fire it at the player with the least ability to cause harm? At the same time, being highly agressive is the best way to disguise yourself . Who would hang the most agressive defender of the town, after all? It is, qute simply, the perfect cover.

So, Wsoxfan, answer me this: What is your opinion of bandwagoning?
And Vodot, How is this information you are gathering going to benefit the town?
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wsoxfan

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2012, 11:31:35 pm »

My opinion on bandwagoning? It should only be done if you're absolutely convinced that the bandwagonee is scum.
 As I am PFPing right now, its easier to just write my comments as I go rather than provide the related text.
You have to examine each player in order to determine if they are indeed the least harmful, or if they're actually the most harmful. I'm not saying by any stretch that the most aggressive questioner is always town-I'm simply saying that the method isn't scummy. Conversely, i believe not asking many questions is a large scumtell.

Also, while a mini-OMGUS isn't quite as much of a scumtell as a full size one, that doesn't mean it doesn't get suspicion. Was this FOS simply due to mine on you?
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Jim Groovester

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #100 on: September 05, 2012, 12:25:34 am »

Jesus Christ.

This is what I get for the first day in a BM.

Kamin: What do you think the most scummy thing someone can do is?
Q2: OMGUS.
Q2: OMGUS. Yeah, I agree with you.

Pfffft, silly noobs.

Only terrible players OMGUS without reason. If someone OMGUSes but otherwise has good reasons for their vote, then it doesn't really matter that it's an OMGUS.

Jim Groovester: Did you ever think that newbie from BM27 would be ICing with you in a future game?  Also, if you were a godfather and there was a guaranteed cop in the game, would you modify your gameplay?

Talent's easy to spot. I didn't specifically think, "One day, this kid is going to be an IC alongside me someday," but it was pretty easy to see that if you stuck with the game you'd do pretty well.

They grow up so quickly. Brings tears to my eye.

As to your question, hell no. I like to think I play a pretty good scum game, so getting a result of town on me as Godfather would be a tremendous advantage. And as an IC, I'm probably higher on the list of targets to be inspected than other players, as demonstrated last Beginner's Mafia with Deathsword inspecting me.

I'm not going to answer that question. Mainly because if I do then I'm dead. If I said for example "I say -Player- because -reasons-" then the scum will just kill -Player- and then the next day you'd say something along the lines of "When I asked -Question- on day 1 you said -Player- and now they're dead. You obviously had something to do with it." Sorry but that seems like a really dangerous question to answer.

Paranoia like this is usually an obstacle in mafia.

Scum teams rarely connive like you're giving them credit for. Read any scum chat. They're almost always more worried about getting detected and avoiding being lynched than trying to think of tricky ways to dupe the town and supervillainous plotting.

That's not to say it doesn't happen, but for the most part it's usually not worth bothering with.

I'd like you to answer those questions, king.

Hell of a way to start off the game, by demanding someone answer the questions they themselves asked.

Why did you ask kingfisher111111111111112 to do that?

Any town role. I'm obvious when I'm scum.

Are you this obvious?

@Jim, D2, you got a guilty on somebody. What do you do to convince the others to lynch that guy? Or do you wait to make your move? (no need to claim).

If the evidence is there to lynch him and it's good evidence, then I do that.

Otherwise, I'd consider claiming my result immediately.

@Wrex, I was just asking. And I'm not being agressive at all... you think that? Does everybody thinks I'm being agressive?

Why are you worried about this?

Being aggressive isn't a problem. You should strive to effectively scumhunt and be aggressive while you do so.

You're kind of freaking out. Why? People figure out you're scum?

If you weren't inexperienced I'd probably be voting you for this.

That's why. "I'm obvious when I'm scum." Tell me that isn't the scummiest thing that's been said all game.

You say it is, but how about you tell me how it is.

Jim and Shakerag: I have to believe that the Scum has at least one experienced player, so I just want to ask you two one question. If you were town, what would your number one scumtell be?

That's not really an assumption you can safely make.

I can't really say that there's a #1 scum tell that gives a player away 100% of the time. I can list a bunch of scumtells I think give away players a majority of the time, but it's never a sure thing with scum tells.

Panicking under pressure, voting with poor or no reasons, lazy bandwagoning, showing little interest in hunting, intentionally avoiding answering questions, are all scum tells I think strongly indicate that a player is scum. There are others I'm probably forgetting.

Jim, as one of the most experienced players here, how do you plan on reconciling your role in giving advice with your need to avoid the impression that you are scummerifically masterminding the downfall of this hapless newbie town, you scummy scum?

This question was asked before I delivered my speech, but I answer it by pointing out that I am honor-bound to provide genuine advice even if it's at cost to me.

And I can do both, mastermind a scum victory and give genuine advice. Easily. If I do it right, I won't give the impression that I'm masterminding anything, because that would naturally be detrimental to actually winning the game as scum.

And it takes little effort to win as scum in a Beginner's Mafia. No need to mastermind anything. It's easy to win when no one knows what the hell they're doing.

I'm suggesting that he might serve the town better dead than alive, yes.  A dead Jim is still our IC, minus all of his potential scummery.

That's not an argument to lynch me. That's not an argument to lynch anyone.

You need a reason to think somebody is scum. You can't vote players based on how dangerous they are.

Assuming this setup?  No. If I know there's a doctor, then possibly; but even then, what guarantees that the doctor believes me and saves me N2?  Halving the ranks of the scum is attractive, but I don't think it would be worth losing the cop for the rest of the game.

I'd actually seriously recommend claiming immediately on finding a guilty result. In this setup, it's impossible for anyone except mafia to come up guilty, so if you get a guilty result as Cop you know for certain that that player is scum.

Finding the final scum is considerably easier once the first one flips, so even though it's likely a cop will die immediately after claiming, on the whole I think it's a plus.

Jim, Another question: You're scum and your noobly partner has basically bungled up D1, OMGUSing and WIFOMing all over heaven.  What advice do you give him?  How badly does he have to eff the scum game up before you simply bus him and move on?

I first tell him to stay calm, because staying calm is the single best thing a scum player can do. And then I tell him to stop being paranoid, that if he answers questions well he can totally salvage his situation, and then I tell him he needs to start looking like he's hunting, but not in a way that looks like it's in reaction to external pressure.

Then I tell him to take my advice on how to scumhunt and such.

Since it's Day 1 in a Beginner's Mafia, I can probably avoid bussing him, and if it's possible to avoid bussing without giving myself away then that's what I would do. In any other game, he'd be dead.

PPE:
Jim is alive!  Please answer my questions, good sir, or i shalt lynch thee forsooth.

Can't lynch me if you don't vote for me.

Which you did lines above this statement.

Is there any reason why all your questions directed towards me are from the scum perspective?

Sentence

by

sentence

attack

Was it really necessary to respond to Kamin sentence by sentence?

Honestly, I have trouble following what the hell you're getting at, and since I've already been at this for four hours I don't really feel like spending any more time trying to figure it out.

I harp on this a lot in Beginner's Mafias, but only because I think it's important: You should be trying to communicate your points as effectively as possible for the purpose of convincing everyone that your targets' are the right ones for the lynch. When you deconstruct it sentence by sentence, you may think you're doing a scathing attack, but in actuality nobody knows what the hell you're talking about.

You need to remember that the players in this game don't have infinite time to read everything, so the faster and easier you get your points across the faster everyone can play this game. Since forum mafia's already take forever, every little bit helps. So I strongly recommend you respond concisely and list your points in as concise manner as feasible.

Taking five questions at once is a lot of pressure, and a lot of exposure for a shifty person like you to try and deal with.  Looking back, you're right: no one was directly accusing or voting you.  But for a player with more than one game under their belt, I find it interesting that your first vote out of the gate was a bandwagon on poor, language-hampered (feigned or not), vulnerable mark.

Check your facts, eager beaver. This is Kamin's first game.

I think. In any case, I've been IC for the past thirteen out of fifteen games, and this is the first I've seen him, so I think it's a fair bet it's his first time.

[non-Dariush] IC's, I'd like some insight into the merits and pitfalls of a D1 lynch for the town in this setup.  Seven of us have a one-in four chance of picking a scum; should we act on D1 or not? 
  • Best case, we nail scum and the game gets weird, assisted 6 v 1 on D2.
  • Worst case, we nail a townie power role and drop to a dangerous, unassisted 5 v 2 on D2.
  • Average situation, though, is we go into D2 with an assisted 5 v 2, hopefully with a cop having picked or cleared a critical player on N1 and surviving.

Is that better than just going 6 v 2 on D2?  I'm definitely EC in this regard and would love to hear your analysis.

Lynching is always better than not lynching. As town, the lynch is how you win the game. If you choose not to use it you severely handicap yourself.

I like to say that the lynch's primary purpose is investigative, because that's what you should be using it as: confirmation of whether you top suspect is scum or not. Its secondary purpose (erroneously listed as its primary purpose) is to remove players from the game, which is how the town wins. By considering it as an investigative tool, you make sure that you use to constantly refine and reconsider your suspicions so that hopefully you end up lynching scum.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #101 on: September 05, 2012, 03:05:44 am »

Alright Wrex, coming off the back of Lurk-O-BM, when did you decide it was a good idea to lurk. Why are you not questioning? Also, why did you vote Vodot with only the statement " He seems pretty accusatory."? You have constantly made short posts, and have made no effort to question. So please tell me the reason.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane
« Reply #102 on: September 05, 2012, 03:12:38 am »

Jesus Christ.

This is what I get for the first day in a BM.

Dammit, I meant missing the first day.
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markressler

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #103 on: September 05, 2012, 07:42:04 am »

@Jim, I'm used to Mafiascum games, not because I've played there, because I've read a lot of games there. They play a bit different, because they have longer deadlines. They start the day asking dumb questions and such, they don't jump straight to ask questions like king's. I was mistaken to think that mafiascum and bay12 played the same, so I was a bit surprised with king's questions, and that was my reaction, ask him to answer his own questions.

And yeah, Wrex, you are asking less questions than me. Why?

Also, King, you are not asking a lot of questions neither, why do you jump against Wrex?
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markressler

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Re: BM XXXVI: Day 1, Judgement in the Archaic Fane - Replacement needed!
« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2012, 07:44:55 am »

Also, Jim, I forgot to answer, yeah, I tend to freak out sometimes whether my alignment is because my lack of experience. Let some day pass and I will be more sure about what to do/what not to do.
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