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Author Topic: "Cheating"  (Read 5207 times)

Xob Ludosmbax

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"Cheating"
« on: August 28, 2012, 12:04:59 pm »

So, I have my legit forts, my fun forts, and my proof of concept forts.  They are each allowed a different amount of cheatiness. 

So, what mods, utilities or dfhack commands do you use, and how "cheaty" do you consider them on a scale from 0-10?

Xob Ludosmbax

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2012, 12:05:42 pm »

My Answers:

0 - In general, anything that could be done in-game, but it's easier to do with external tools.
0 - Dwarf Therapist -- Makes managing jobs easier.
0 - workflow, seedwatch, autobutcher -- Essential micromanagement that I don't have to do.
0 - mods that don't make things easier, such as added races, reduced stone (not as much of an issue anymore, and can actually make things more difficult), or other overall well balanced mods
0 - "tweak" -- Workarounds for bugs
0 - "cleanowned" -- Workaround for a bug
0 - "drybuckets" -- Workaround for a bug.
0 - cheaty mods that exist but aren't used.  -- eg. that reaction that I'm using for testing elsewhere that I never removed from the raws.
0 - exploiting pathfinding -- eg. shortest path traps
0 - quantum stockpiles -- I know it's probably considered an exploit, but otherwise things get too messy for my tastes.
1 - "prospect" on embark map -- to make sure I like the embark site before spending too much time on it.
1 - unbalanced exploits -- such as melting bolts
1 - Adventure mode training exercises
1 - Peaking at Legends
1 - Dwarven Radar
^^ Legit Forts ^^
2 - "prospect all" once immediately after embark -- Again, to make sure I like the embark site before spending too much time on it.  I try to look only at mineral counts and sand/clay. 
2 - "showmood" -- It's intentionally obscure in-game, but all the information is there if you know how to read it.
^^ Semi-legit Forts ^^
3 - "reveal" on embark to set up my fortress layout without hitting that aquifer.  No peaking down deep!
4 - "die" and savescumming in general.
5 - mods that are unbalanced, but fix issues I consider important,
5 - "reveal"
^^ Fun Forts ^^
6 - "autodump"
7 - "liquids"
9 - "tiletypes" -- at this point, what's the point in having miners?
9 - "fastdwarf"
^^ Proof of Concept Forts ^^
10 - gamebreaking mods -- Free adamantium anyone?
10 - Other flat-out game-breaking cheating, you know it when you see it.
^^ !!SCIENCE!! Forts ^^

darkrider2

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2012, 12:06:31 pm »

This game is single player with no DRM. Cheating doesn't exist, only personalization exists.

And if your customization is particularly cool, you can add it to the mods forum.

EDIT: That was the fastest I've ever been ninja'd and by such a long post. Xob you are a ninja of great power. Use that skill wisely sir.
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Darkgamma

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2012, 12:12:18 pm »

I once tried to make elves milkable to cheat.
They grew four arms and fur and two heads and generally all the stuff from great bears, except that they also siege forts. So, yeah, I cheated my way to death.

But the worst that I've done in DF to cheat, and succeeded, was to paint aquifer tiles with DF Hack.
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malimbar04

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2012, 12:18:26 pm »

No mods at all, utilities, or DFHack are used in general.

Though in recent forts I considered using DFHack to force dump rotting clothing, because dwarves apparently don't care about hygene and FPS issues very much.
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Urist_McGamer

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2012, 12:21:40 pm »

I'd have to agree with Xob. What constitutes "cheating" depends on what you're trying to do with the fort. When I want to build something massive and complex, like a replica of Hoover Dam or the Empire State Building, or the Las Vegas strip, I just spawn in the proper materials. I can't be bothered to find an embark site that looks good AND has the right materials or to actually make thousands of clear glass windows, for example.
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But others might prefer to have the mess contained behind windows to avoid tracking blood all over the their nice, color coordinated floor patterns. Kind of the Ozzy Osborne vs. Martha Stewart debate.

AutomataKittay

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2012, 12:23:13 pm »

Idea of cheating is rather difficult to classify with single-player game. Particularly a very modifible one, it could be anywhere from the 110% coin smelting result in default to reactions to turn every dwarves into bronze colossus and to make a million bluemetal wafers. Or just giving dwarves bone of steel or making multiple civilization to get bigger sieges.

Then there're the split between legit exploits and outright cheats that people debates with splitting bolts smelting and cave-in traps. And quantum stockpiling. And so on...

I don't uses any mods except personal ones, like making all underground plant plantable year-around and expanding bone and stone equipments. No utilities either.

Something valuable for nothing or modifying embarking race to be next to invincible against incoming sieges would be something close to cheating in my book, if not for testing use. Stuff like bolt splitting and over 100% smelting return's more in providence of exploits since it takes effort to do.

Do note that being able to import steel bar from dwarves when there're no iron from their civ could be considered a cheat by above standard, and overly abundant egg meal also :D
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Bigheaded

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 12:33:57 pm »

It's cheating if you think it is.

I'm pretty noob but i avoid a lot of stuff

0 - Mass traps everywhere, it's currently my main way of survival. Especially where they are likely to walk due to pathing.
1 - abusing sparring. Sorry but legendary hammerdwarves 2 seasons in... wtf?
2 - abusing expensive trade goods, wooden spiked balls for 1035 each? lawl. Roasts also pretty expensive for their ease to make (take 200 seeds at embark and just roast them all)
2 - Buying tonnes of food off the dwarves, i think the amount of food they have to trade makes it a bit easy
^willing to abuse each game
rarely abuse \/
4 - Dwarf Therapist, generally I do not use this.
5 - magma/Flood abuse against goblins/raiders, not that i know how to, just seems a bit imba, so not even attempted it as of yet.
8 - Viewing layout of the fort, before going in. You get what you get, no peeking allowed!
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I just found a barrel which contained a wheelbarrow. Inside the wheelbarrow was another barrel. I don't even understand how that is possible.

aoxoa

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2012, 12:41:56 pm »

While I do not think cheating is bad, and happens to enhance or actually make this game sometimes fun!, its pretty obvious what is cheating and what isn't ;d

Runesmith used to be my favorite cheat program.

I use always dwarf therapist (Oh I hate the name of it, mainly since broken down its lol, but unfortuantly thats how those doctors are named).

Soundsense, which is not cheating, but enhances the game via SOUND :D

Thats it.

I have dfhack loaded when I play but seriously ive not really used it at all lol. Ages ago reveal and unreveal I think it is was good. One time I forgot to unreveal and I found out what happens when you "Spoiler which I wont say".

But yeah I would go back to runesmith but the current version it supports, unfortuantly you cant designate things on z levels :( I arnt much of a cheater anyway, I just get lazy and restart forts too much before !!fun!! happens. Or my fort is so boring that I get as with one, 134 dwarves and not even a single goblin/kobald has appeared. Worked tons getting everything, including a good military (Not skilled, havn't abused danger rooms yet lol), but so many marks and tons of armor dwarves. Iron armor ftw.
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Telgin

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 01:27:39 pm »

I don't consider anything you can do already in game cheating, including danger rooms and melting bolts.  Some are cheesy, but not really cheating.  I use these as I see fit, depending on what my goals for the fort are.  I don't use danger rooms because they make it too easy, but I do sometimes melt bolts (recovered from the ground anyway, I don't go so far as to split stacks and melt them).  On your scale, I'd rate these as 1 at most.

Other than that, I don't really use any DFHack utilities or the like to 'cheat'.  I don't consider utilities that get around bugs to be cheats, although to some it might make things seem a bit less pure.  These would probably be 0 on your scale, maybe 1.

RAW modding is another beast, and can do anything from outright breaking the game difficulty (either way) to just having fun with a mod.  I try to just keep this to full on game mods when I do it, and don't do anything like make dwarves super sized or have supernatural stats, no need to eat and drink, or things like that.  This can range from anywhere from 0-10.

I do consider some RAW fixes to be semi-legit though, although it's a bit of a fuzzy area.  And that is fixing freaking whips and scourges (and maybe daggers).  It's just kind of ridiculous, and I don't find losing a good soldier to a whip to the brain to be fun.  In my current fort I've modded whips and scourges to be dangerous but not lightsabers.  Many others do the same, but it is technically cheating.  I'd consider this a 2: it fixes a fundamental problem with the game, but is making it easier for the sake of making it easier.  It's possible, if frustrating, to play the game without this change.

Savescumming is another matter entirely, and one a lot will argue over.  It depends on what you're doing with the fort, and forts where you're just having fun or testing things, I say do whatever you want.  For more 'serious' games (if you can pin down such a definition), it's blatant cheating and against the spirit of the game (else it would at the very least have separate save and quit features).

One problem I've encountered with savescumming in my forts is that it's so tempting, and whenever I do it once I sort of give in and start savescumming for everything I don't like.  In my current fort, I savescummed when I lost several good soldiers to whips, fixed the RAWs, then tried again with much greater success.  That is still probably in the 5+ range on the cheat 'o meter.  In general I have a problem with savescumming.  I like to put more RP elements into my forts, and it really sucks when the characters die.  I find the temptation too great to savescum, and it's hard for me to just let them die.  Playing a hardman fort where I never savescum is difficult for me.

I will tell myself that it's okay to savescum for certain things, like a prisoner dying because nobody brought them food or water (it was preventable if the game wasn't buggy), or if a soldier died to a whip (it was preventable if the game wasn't buggy).  The trouble is that I'll also savescum for things like flooding the fort (else I wasted X hours on the thing because I was stupid).  The level of cheating here is variable and subjective.  I place the former cases of undoing stupid buggy behavior as a 3-4 on the cheat 'o meter, and the later as really full on 10 since it was fully my fault and I savescummed to get around being stupid on my part.

In any case, I doubt too many people play vanilla DF in hardman mode with no external utilities (such as even Therapist).  Surely some do, but I'm betting most will do something considered to be cheating.
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dwarfhoplite

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 01:35:39 pm »

I think that all hacks that benefit you massively but whose use cannot be justified by bad game mechanics, are not acceptable.
Example of acceptable hack is Therapist.
Using reveal hack to find every metal vein is low.

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Varnifane

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2012, 05:30:20 pm »

Not gonna comment on what other people are doing.

There are worse things people could be doing on their computer at 2am than autodumping socks...

-always use prospect before embark because I like useful combinations of resources. No wood, sand, clay, iron, copper? No thanks.
-always use therapist

-regularly use digv and dig l. Because I expect my miners (even the dwarven ones) to be intelligent enough to dig out a vein of ore.
-regularly use cleanmap(or whatever it is called) because I am greedy about the FPS

-used to use autodump to move massive amounts of stone for megaprojects. But now that I have carts there is no need.

 
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expwnent

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2012, 08:57:15 pm »

I don't play Dwarf Fortress. I play WITH Dwarf Fortress. Nothing is cheating for me.
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Maur

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 03:08:04 am »

How do you fix the whips? Should i raise it's contact area? Where?
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Sinistar

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Re: "Cheating"
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 03:34:33 am »

I once tried to make elves milkable to cheat.
They grew four arms and fur and two heads and generally all the stuff from great bears, except that they also siege forts. So, yeah, I cheated my way to death.
Aaaaaand THIS my friends...this is Dwarf Fortress.


I do not cheat, I think. I generally try to avoid things I consider exploitable from my own personal views that I in no way enforce on other people and also entirely depend on what kind of fort I envision and on my whim.

But it basically boils down to not using tetrahedrite ore to make billon bars.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 03:36:11 am by Sinistar »
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