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[Skyrunner]

It's probably one of those philosophical or ethical classics. Should the jailer let one innocent free and also let a hundred criminals free, or should the jailer jail all hundred and one people?
There's no answer when considered from all angles, including logic, ethos and morality. >.>

[justinlee999]

If cerapa is right, the server requires that you submit a "great application", then the whole age limit thing is kinda pointless anyway.

Why have people go through a test of maturity and dedication, and then impose an age limit for the hell of it? The test should already weed out the immature ones, the age limit will do nothing to weed out immature ones, but it will deny a huge amount of decent Minecraft players to enjoy the server.

[sluissa]

I'm in my mid 20s at this point. When I was a teenager I definitely felt mature and thought I could handle responsibility and such. Now, there are some times when I don't really feel all that different at all, but there are plenty of times I look back and I cringe at how stupid I was. I'm still stupid in many ways, but hopefully I"ll have at least learned not to repeat the stupidity of my teenage years.

Trust me, age limits have their purposes, experience is a good teacher, and in some cases the only one available. Yes, it may keep some people out, but nobody is mature in every respect even if they're 60. You're just looking for the more mature people. And hopefully they've become mature in the right ways to play nicely.

I hate to be discriminatory to the young, because I do remember being there. I remember hating it and feeling like it would never end. In the end this is their server, and I might ask to check it out sometime if I have the time. I don't think they've shot themselves in the foot, they've just set limits on who they'll accept and there is sound reasoning behind it.


Good luck uggi, and good luck to all you youngsters out there. Give it time, it will come.

[Matz05]

This is just like why American airport security is so maligned compared to Israeli security -- the idea that "there ought to be a RULE!" is superior to having inteligent, well-trained, properly-equipped people make the calls.


Go ahead and ban everyone who is annoying whiny griefers without care for their feelings.
Don't ban people because their (race/gender/age group) has a lot of annoying whiny griefers.

Go ahead and let soldiers shadow suspicious persons and terminate confirmed attackers with extreme prejudice.
Don't suddenly say "Mam, the boarder must have made a mistake! Your four-year-old daughter's name is on the no-fly list! GET HER OFF THAT PLANE NOW!" (actually happened, more or less) or "I know this urn is sealed and marked HUMAN REMAINS, and the TSA specifically told me not to mess with them, and it passed all the scanners, and the passenger warned me about it before hand. I'm still going to unseal it and stir my finger around in it to look for contraband shampoo/hand sanitizer/baby formula!" (also happened) or "IT HAS BLINKING LEDS AND ISN"T SEALED! ITS A BOMB! <uh, that's my breadboard blinker pendant. do you like it?> (two days later) YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF FOR BRINGING FAKE BOMBS TO AN AIRPORT YOU AMERICA-HATER!" (also happened)


The point is that when "there should be a LAW!" gets in the way of actually getting things done, the forces you are attempting to filter automatically win.
Griefers make admins ban vast swathes of populace = people given grief.
Terrorists make government accuse and aggressively interrogate and demean the populace = people are terrorized.

People who think that banning a section of the populace from your community and hiring thugs to keep the people in line will remove problem individuals are both very patriotic and very deluded.

A proper filtering of undesirables requires personal involvement.
To keep up the airport security parallel, Israel observes the crowds from the moment they enter the airport to single out suspiciously-behaving people, and puts multiple armed soldiers on each flight, some in uniform and some undercover. If someone is suspicious, they move their seat at the last minute to make them sit in the middle of a bunch of soldiers. If nothing happens, they can go at the end of their flight. If they try to attack something, there are a lot of opportunities for the soldiers to knife them, beat them senseless, or; if worst comes to worst, open fire (I presume they are given safety-fragmentation bullets to reduce chances of penetrating the hull or ricocheting).
You already have a proper first screen in that you have to apply to get in. A good second screen would be simply to keep an eye on new players. There is very little someone can do that can't be solved by a look at the logs, a banhammering, and a minute or two of admin work.

[alexandertnt]

Unfortunetely in Minecraft's case (as opposed to aircraft security), "intelligent, well-trained" people are not getting paid squat. So they are going to pick the cheapest possible solution, which happens to be rule. And this is OK in comparison to airport security, since unlike airport security no one's life is in danger, so screwup's are not a big deal. That metaphor does not work here.

[Matz05]

But what I'm saying is:
A: You have admins who care
B: You have an application process

So how does an idiot get in, and even if they do, what harm would they do before being banned by the admins?
What does it matter what age the players are?

I can understand a maturity limit, but an absolute age limit just sounds stupid.

The answers I see some people spouting are "Oh, under-18s can't understand this! Under-18s are too immature for that!" But what makes him magically sober up on his birthday. I understand how the response to this is to repeat "we said we'll give a month here and there if you are held to a higher standard of application", but I fail to see why a logical, coherent, inteligent 14-year-old is somehow inferior as a user to the worst of 19-year-old idiots.
Why should somebody be held to a higher standard than somebody else just because their birthdays differ by a month?

You turned 18 fifteen days ago? I can kinda read your application... "1 TURND 18 FIVETEN DOS UGO! WANT 2 MEAT NU FRENDS PLYING MENCROFT!" Welcome to the server!
_You_ want to get in _my_ server when you're 17 years 11 months 15 days old? Ugh. Disgusting kids. This application better be REALLY good... And I mean really good!

Now isn't that hypocritical?

[Duke 2.0]

 Sweet jesus this is all silly. They don't want to deal with a ton of crap. Age limits remove a ton of crap. There are some diamonds down there but it isn't worth dealing with all the junk in the way. This isn't some grand social injustice. Nobody is harmed by this rule. The only thing bruised is some weird sense of 'fairness' that doesn't really apply when it comes to the wants of a small community.

 Looking over the intended feel for the server it looks like something I would want to be a part of. It doesn't have an overwhelming number of mods for a dozen little things, it has a focus on a relaxed community that isn't interested in drama or crazy themed silliness and the active timezone isn't in the deep evening for me.

 I don't think I am ready for getting involved in yet another forum and community though. Posting in the MC forums is pushing it for me as it is. I do wish you luck in advertising and finding chill players for this.

[Grakelin]

There's another component to the age limit in that sometimes adults don't want to play with somebody who is twelve years old and not yet capable of connecting on an intellectual level. There's no polite way to tell a preteen he's not as smart as he thinks he is. Especially since they tend to become outraged and claim they are being stereotyped for being a kid. As in this thread, where a group of people with the mean age of 15 scream at this guy for a rule designed to prevent a bunch of people with the mean age of 15 from screaming at him.

I was a kid on the internet once, too, and I acted the same way. I wouldn't want to play Minecraft with 14-year-old me, and it has little to do with the abrasiveness of him.

[alexandertnt]

You turned 18 fifteen days ago? I can kinda read your application... "1 TURND 18 FIVETEN DOS UGO! WANT 2 MEAT NU FRENDS PLYING MENCROFT!" Welcome to the server!
_You_ want to get in _my_ server when you're 17 years 11 months 15 days old? Ugh. Disgusting kids. This application better be REALLY good... And I mean really good!

We have an age limit, which is around 18

Also they never said anything like you are saying, you are putting words in their mouths. They want to play with more mature people. While some under 18's can be, alot are not. Its much easier to apply this rule then it is to let them all in and ban them one at a time. An age limit is not perfect. It has some collateral damage, but it makes sense here as a method of yielding (on average) more-mature players. No one is measuring inferiority based of age.

I can understand a maturity limit, but an absolute age limit just sounds stupid.

The answers I see some people spouting are "Oh, under-18s can't understand this! Under-18s are too immature for that!" But what makes him magically sober up on his birthday. I understand how the response to this is to repeat "we said we'll give a month here and there if you are held to a higher standard of application", but I fail to see why a logical, coherent, inteligent 14-year-old is somehow inferior as a user to the worst of 19-year-old idiots.
Why should somebody be held to a higher standard than somebody else just because their birthdays differ by a month?

Nothing makes anyone sobre up on their 18'th birthday. They are using age as a guide to maturity, not as a literal measurement to maturity. Again, no one is saying that a 14-year-old is inferior to anyone. It seems you are interpriting the rule as "all under-18's are inferior and immature and cant play with us and we dislike them automatically" rather than how it was intended "If we limit age to around 18+, we will generally get more mature players."

[Matz05]

I see what you are saying, but you ALREADY have a maturity test in the application process. Asking one's age has nothing to do with it, and would most logically be interpreted as a slap in the face of "better lie or your application will be put under greater scrutiny".

[Rex_Nex]

Please consider that they don't want to waste their time reading the application of someone in an agegroup that is mostly rotten apples. It isn't a case of ignoring that they might be mature, it's a case of wanting to bypass the whole kazoo of dealing with younger players.

Like I said earlier, reviewing applications is a very annoying process unless you have a lot of people helping you or almost no one applying. Assuming neither of these are the case, I can surely see why they'd want something to limit the amount of applications they have to receive while also filtering out a lot of immature players.

[Matz05]

Wait. So you are advocating throwing out applications based on age BEFORE reading the essay that proves maturity?
That just proves my point. It punishes not lying and that never makes a healthy environment.

[Imofexios]

I have no idea why some take this age thing like an insult against them.
Do you go clubs and whine at the bouncer why they have age restrictions!?
Grow up.

[alexandertnt]

Wait. So you are advocating throwing out applications based on age BEFORE reading the essay that proves maturity?
That just proves my point. It punishes not lying and that never makes a healthy environment.

As Rex_Nex said, reviewing applications takes time. Time is something people do not have alot of, especially considering they are doing it for free. Limiting age limits applications and *generally* produces better applications. Limiting age makes reviewing applications take less time. This seems like a reasonable thing to do in their circumstance.

Of course in a perfect world there would be no age limit, and no application, and admins could monitor people for suspicious behaviour and determine any potential problem-causers. Super accurate. But it's not a perfect world and many people do not have that sort of time/money. So they will apply an age-limit heuristic to automagically speed/cheapen up the process.

[ThtblovesDF]

When i was far younger, I saw the endless injustice of age limits, i rebeled and threw a hissy fit or sneaked my way in just as much as any other kid.

Now that my beard has gray'd a little, I truly appriciate the age filters.

Going to apply over in the MC forum (Thtb), see you soon.

Nevermind, I both have no intention to sign up on curses stuff again, nor do all these mods tend to work out for me - a lack of ts/ventrilo servers finishes the deal, sadly.