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[Teldin]

So, my main question is: will fliers be able to fly up the Z-axises if there is nothing above them in the new version? If I am playing a flier adventurer will there finally be a command to start and stop flying?

For example, I noticed on one of Toady's videos that his dwarves built a bridge actually outside, I think? Up one level and then dug into the cliff face, then built a bridge to the other side of it? If I mod a flying species would they be able to fly up to that bridge, or land on top of rooves?

It'd be pretty awesome if you dug out a cave, walled up the entrance and made secondary entrances high up on the cliffside so you could only fly up to it, or made shafts going up/down your fortress instead of staircases so invaders get stuck there.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

I would think so based on this:

quote:From Recent Developments:
<STRONG>08/14/2007: Added support for alt and ctrl keys, finished adv mode swim/fly interface
08/13/2007: Handled 3D swim/fly pathing, handled most of adv mode swim/fly interface</STRONG>

It would sure seem odd to say "finished adv mode swim/fly interface" after adding z-levels if you don't support diving up and down in the air and water.  

[Turgid Bolk]

This was discussed in another topic. You will be able to fly! But there's no "start flying" button, you just move up and you automatically start flying. IIRC.

[Toady One]

Barring bugs, the main problem is that you can't fly up into the sky if it isn't allocated.  That's still on to-do.  So in a flat area, or at the highest local area, you won't be able to fly up.

[Alfador]

But modding an adventurer race to fly WILL then solve climbing problems. Just not flying straight up from a mountaintop or a broad plain.

[Eiba]

Related question:

If I mod goblins (or some other sieging race) to fly in the next version, will they come in through my open windows if my doors are locked?

[Toady One]

Yeah, we've talked about this pathing quirk a bit.  For optimization reasons, creatures that are on some kind of long range job type mission will think as a dwarf thinks.  So in that case a flying creature that is bent on destroying a building from a long range will only attempt to path there if it is accessible via dwarf-walking (but then they will take the shortest flight there).  However, with some things like wandering, fleeing terrain, fleeing opponents and chasing opponents, it relies on periodic short distance pathing floods and lines of sight which are independent of the dwarf-walk restriction.  I'm sure there's more that will have to be done, but hopefully there can be some terrifying moments.  There's still some silly stuff of course, probably still some fortification things like before etc etc.  Even the same silly things, since I've been doing this update to get the z stuff in and haven't had a chance to address the various issues.  As we creep towards the Army Arc rather than the Bug Fixing Torture Arc, I'll start making this more satisfying, hopefully.

[Armok]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Bug Fixing Torture Arc</STRONG>

Remove "Bug Fixing" from the beginning of that, and it doesn't sound so bad at all!   (<- that smile(ie) looks sadistic, right?)

Of coarse, the meaning becomes inversed, but I just couldn't resist, Torture will have to do with it's bloat(s) and do whiteout an arc of it's own.  :roll:

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Yeah, we've talked about this pathing quirk a bit.  For optimization reasons, creatures that are on some kind of long range job type mission will think as a dwarf thinks.  So in that case a flying creature that is bent on destroying a building from a long range will only attempt to path there if it is accessible via dwarf-walking (but then they will take the shortest flight there).  However, with some things like wandering, fleeing terrain, fleeing opponents and chasing opponents, it relies on periodic short distance pathing floods and lines of sight which are independent of the dwarf-walk restriction.  I'm sure there's more that will have to be done, but hopefully there can be some terrifying moments.  There's still some silly stuff of course, probably still some fortification things like before etc etc.  Even the same silly things, since I've been doing this update to get the z stuff in and haven't had a chance to address the various issues.  As we creep towards the Army Arc rather than the Bug Fixing Torture Arc, I'll start making this more satisfying, hopefully.</STRONG>

Army Arc...I cant wait for it!
 

[Captain Mayday]

I have a question about the fliers myself.
If I slice off the wings of a flier, will it still be able to fly? At the moment, flying does not seem to be a function of body parts.

I still understand the need for there to be some sort of 'this creature doesn't need wings to fly' thing, but for most stuff, if it can't use a wing, it shouldn't be able to fly.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

quote:Originally posted by Mayday:
<STRONG>I have a question about the fliers myself.
If I slice off the wings of a flier, will it still be able to fly? At the moment, flying does not seem to be a function of body parts.

I still understand the need for there to be some sort of 'this creature doesn't need wings to fly' thing, but for most stuff, if it can't use a wing, it shouldn't be able to fly.</STRONG>

[BODY:2WINGS]
[BP:RWING:right wing][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][LIMB]

[FLIER]
[BP:LWING:left wing][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][LIMB]

[FLIER]

from body_default

[Jonathan S. Fox]

quote:Originally posted by Fishersalwaysdie:
<STRONG>

[BODY:2WINGS]
[BP:RWING:right wing][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][LIMB]

[FLIER]
[BP:LWING:left wing][CONTYPE:UPPERBODY][LIMB]

[FLIER]</STRONG>

I was going to mention that, but then I realized that there was no guarantee that the flier tag on body parts has anything to do with flying -- I mean, there are other dormant tags, this one may be for future use. Note that in creature_standard, the harpy (random example) has the [FLIER] tag and the 2WINGS body part. On the other hand, there are flying vermin (everything in creature_birds) that have no bodies at all, but still have the [FLIER] tag on the creature. As a result, it's not clear to me what exactly the flier tag does on body parts, and whether ripping the wings off of a flier will prevent them from flying. It may be that non-vermin specifically must have body parts that enable flying to get off the ground, or that creatures with body parts that enable flying can lose their flier ability if they lose their wings, or it may be that the body part flier tags are currently dormant and only the creature tags matter for now, and this is something which will be changed in the future. Whatever it is, it's very difficult to test in the current version, and it may have changed in the upcoming one.

[Xgamer4]

On the "dwarf pathing" thing, what would happen if I gave my dwarves wings and the ability to fly? Would they start using open windows if doors are locked or what?

[Turgid Bolk]

No, they must be able to walk to their destination.

Once they check that they can walk there, and the path is clear, then they figure out how to get there.

The example Toady gave before was: if dwarves could fly, they still couldn't cross the chasm without a bridge. Once you build a bridge, they would start flying back and forth all over the chasm, without using the bridge. But they have to have that walkable path.

[Toady One]

At the creature level, [FLIER] controls whether or not the creature should bother thinking about flying.  This one is required, and it's all you have for the vermin level critters that don't (yet) have body definitions -- the currently posted version doesn't exactly respect it for vermin though.  I think it's a lot better now.  In the current version you can have a lizard generated in the sky, and it'll be fine there.  In the new one, water/air/ground type movement types act better for vermin.

Anyway, regarding unit-sized creatures, they need the [FLIER] flag to be fliers, but then it looks at two more things.  If the creature is incapacitated, it loses its ability to fly (there might be exceptions to this later, like magical critters that can't help but float, or whatever).  Also, it looks at the [FLIER] body part flag.  If the creature's body had any of the flag to begin with, it requires that the number of working [FLIER] parts is at least half the number of total [FLIER] parts.  So if you don't add a [FLIER] part to a creature, it can still fly as long as it isn't incapacitated, because the game assumes it didn't require a specific part.  If you do add [FLIER] parts, it needs to keep at least half of them working -- of course this is a bit odd for wings, since you'd generally like to have both wings working, but that's how it works right now.  Maybe I'll change it to 2/3rds rounded up.

Incapacitated: KO(inc. sleep)/Webbed/Paralyzed.