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Author Topic: Challenge: Save my fortress  (Read 8029 times)

malimbar04

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2012, 12:03:51 pm »

I took a look at the save. That's not a fortress. That a hastily dug hole in the earth packed with miserable dwarves.

haha, so true.
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No! No! I will not massacre my children. Instead, I'll make them corpulent on crappy mass-produced quarry bush biscuits and questionably grown mushroom alcohol, and then send them into the military when they turn 12...

Hans Lemurson

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 11:05:27 pm »

I'm on attempt #7 now, this time catching a slightly lucky break at the start with no immediate insanity.

However things have taken a turn for the worst when a dwarf went into a Fell Mood and ganked the Mayor.

Name translates to: Hoperuthless the Anguished Grave

The next mayor was an imprisoned murder convict who,  when I freed him to properly pursue his mayoral duties, was subsequently hunted down and beaten to death by my Captain of the Guard, who hadn't yet had his non-lethal weapons equipped.

I did learn something useful though:  Freeing somebody from imprisonment makes them VERY happy!  This can be exploited by having another jail cell ready to take them after you deconstruct the first chain they are attached to. This does not work, "Happy to be free" and "Depressed due to confinement" are mutually exclusive.  The happiness boost from their freedom more than offsets the depression from repeated imprisonment.  If only I had had a second Restraint of Justice ready for my murderer-mayor.

Still, I think this "free and re-imprison" maneuver can be used to prevent fisticuff-deaths from turning into a total loss of both parties.  It should be possible for the tantrum-killer to make it through their sentence without descending into melancholy.

What you CAN do though is imprison a bunch of people and then deconstruct their chains to make them Ecstatic, but after that you can't make any more jails without getting them re-imprisoned.

Fun fact: If you charge your Captain of the Guard with a murder, they will not assign themselves a punishment.  But if you then appoint another dwarf to be CoG, he will then assign a punishment to his predecessor.  However, the first CoG still retains all of his punishment assignments, and if the new guy happened to have been convicted previously, then he will attempt to arrest the current CoG.  I had a situation where I had the CoG and his predecessor both attempting to arrest each other and caught in an eternal deadlock, each refusing to budge in spite of thirst or hunger.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 06:05:18 am by Hans Lemurson »
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Foolprooof way to penetrate aquifers of unlimited depth.  (Make sure to import at least 10 stones for mechanisms)
Toughen Dwarves by dropping stuff on them.  (Nothing too heavy though, and make sure to wear armor.)
Quote
"Urist had a little lamb
whose feet tracked blighted soot.
And into every face he saw
his sooty foot he put."

Hans Lemurson

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2012, 08:42:04 am »

After getting really lucky and having my dwarves go either melancholy or stark raving mad, rather than going Berserk, I managed to get stabilized at 70 population.  Would have been 75 except that a miner finally went berserk in my hospital(impatient with slow medical care), killed the fellow patients, brained an axedwarf who wouldn't put a helmet on, and dis-armed his partner.

My conclusion:  The most dangerous part of Tantrum Spirals is the deaths. (Wow! I'm so insightful!!!) If you can avoid further deaths and provide for people's needs, then the plague of insanity will dissipate sooner.  The violent deaths and murders of bersekers do much more damage than the quiet deferred suicides of the babbling and depressed.

I also experimented with sculpture gardens, making use of my Artifact Statue.  That helped too, I think.
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Foolprooof way to penetrate aquifers of unlimited depth.  (Make sure to import at least 10 stones for mechanisms)
Toughen Dwarves by dropping stuff on them.  (Nothing too heavy though, and make sure to wear armor.)
Quote
"Urist had a little lamb
whose feet tracked blighted soot.
And into every face he saw
his sooty foot he put."

Helgoland

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2012, 05:25:05 pm »

The most dangerous part of Tantrum Spirals is the deaths.
Aaaand sigged.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Rallan

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2012, 07:56:44 am »

Something interesting which struck me through multiple replays is that it's usually the same group of dwarves who tend to survive.  It makes me wonder if perhaps the tantrum spiral weeds out everybody with weak personalities, who succumb to stress easily.  Is the average mental fortitude of the fortress increased after such a harrowing?

There're a lot of factors that have nothing to do with personality. Dwarves that like commonly available stuff get happy thoughts more often than dwarves who like stuff your fortress doesn't produce (eg a dwarf who likes plump helmets is gonna eat what he wants more often than a dwarf who likes elephant). Dwarves who crank out lots of masterwork stuff (eg carpenters and masons), or who have pets, or who have lots of relatives are going to be more affected by other dwarves' tantrums. Dwarves who move all over the fortress will have more chances to get happy thoughts from valuable items. Dwarves who work outdoors will get rained on. Soldiers and hunters will frequently sleep rough. Dwarves with skills that are never used (I'm looking at YOU, waxworkers) spend a lot of their time not working unless there's lots of hauling to be done. And in this fortress's case, recent immigrants will have the unfair advantage of straight-up not being around long enough for the total sucktitude of the place to get to them.
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Maur

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2012, 08:36:32 am »

By the way, where are the levers for the gates? The ones in dining room doesn't seem to work, do they?
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Ganthan

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2012, 11:21:18 am »

I was stabilizing at 69 dwarfs, but then my woodcutter, the only non-military dwarf I allowed to have one of the scarce battle-axes, went berserk while in the hospital (I dedicated a corner of that engraved + shaped room to be a hospital).  Killed all three other patients in there (including a wounded member of the military) before running off to a nice open area where a marksdwarf was able to subdue her with 4 bone bolts.

Also after a long period of peace, one of my axemen suddenly went berserk.  I was able to dispatch him quickly with 4 bolts from a nearby marksdwarf, which is good in that he caused no damage, but bad that my best armored melee warrior was taken down by bone ammunition.  Will have to work on this.

Hey, that gives me a design idea for future forts:  Catwalks for marksdwarf soldiers and fortress guards to patrol above the dwarves as they work and live.
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Hans Lemurson

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2012, 03:54:11 pm »

I reached a population minimum of 65 dwarves on my 7th attempt, and so I consider that reasonably successful.  It's so sad in a tantrum-spiral to see good dwarfs go bad.

It's important to have a good mayor, and a steady supply of happy replacement mayors, since constantly consoling miserable dwarves takes its toll on their psyche, and you never quite know when somebody they care about is going to get murdered.

An exploit that does work with the justice system is to have an offending dwarf get chained up, then deconstruct the chain, releasing them making them "happy to be free".  This goes away if they get re-imprisoned, but if there are no prisons, then a beating will be administered instead, and the dwarf will be "Happy to have his sentence reduced".  This adds a few hundred points of happiness to a dwarf who previously would have been miserable, and with his new reformed attitude is unlikely to commit further crimes.

The last of the insane died off as the dwarven caravan visited, and I unloaded huge amounts of tattered clothing from dead dwarves in exchange for iron/steel weapons and armor and a caged Giant Cave Spider.  Apparently this dwarven Civ sells those!  I now have the opportunity to test the GCS silk harvesting methods I've heard of.

The next spring, 30 new migrants showed up "Despite the Danger".  My fortress will no longer be 50% children now! (Just 30%)  Although some of the children were already planting seeds and cutting wood.

One way I dealt with the housing shortage to make sure it went only to useful Dwarves was to label everybody who went melancholy or raving with the custom profession "NUTS".  NUTS dwarves don't get beds.  >:(  Unfortunately the custom profession name sticks even after death, and so several well-liked dwarves are condemned to be remembered only for their weak mental fortitude in the face of unspeakable tragedy.  The Mayor and his wife somehow managed to remain at "miserable" for 2 solid seasons without going insane, so props to them!

It would be interesting to see what sort of factors affect a dwarf's resilience to insanity.  All surviving adults though can "Handle stress well" and one guy who "Never gets angry" declined to tantrum.

If these psychological factors are genetic, it would be interesting to breed, through blood and tragedy, a population of dwarves with extreme mental fortitude.
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Foolprooof way to penetrate aquifers of unlimited depth.  (Make sure to import at least 10 stones for mechanisms)
Toughen Dwarves by dropping stuff on them.  (Nothing too heavy though, and make sure to wear armor.)
Quote
"Urist had a little lamb
whose feet tracked blighted soot.
And into every face he saw
his sooty foot he put."

christehchris

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2012, 04:22:33 pm »

*slow clap*
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Hans Lemurson

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Re: Challenge: Save my fortress
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2012, 04:48:03 am »

The 7th attempt only worked because I got lucky and had many fewer than average murders (deadly fist-fights) and berserkers than on other attempts.

This was a very interesting challenge that's kept my attention for some time.  I like jumping into challenge scenarios, because they give me a problem to confront without having to make mistakes in order to set them up in the first place.  Trying to build a house while it's burning down around you is quite a challenge.

The challenges I faced and how I dealt with them:

1.) Dwarves running around chased by goblins.
Make use of the Burro(w) system in combination with Military Alerts.  Set the underground and fortress interiors to be an area called "Safe" or something, create a military alert that has that Burrow selected, and then set that one as the "Civilian Alert".  This means that all civilians will attempt to remain inside this area and not perform any jobs outside.  It's the #1 most effective way of getting your people indoors.
You also have to re-open the inner gate to let them in.  The double-layer of cage traps is enough to totally capture a goblin squad 90% of the time.  Earlier attempts had..."incidents" where an solitary goblin warrior managed to make it into the fort and cause havoc (and death).  So yeah, "safety burrows" are your friend.  It's not an obvious thing to do, so it's understandable that you were at a loss as to how to save those who were trapped outdoors trying to retrieve the socks of their fallen comrades.

2.) No food or booze!!!
How did this happen?  Seriously, your cupboard is bare.  You have a ton of barrels lying around, so my guess is that you imported most of your food from caravans, had built up a large stockpile of food and drink, and then was in "Defecit spending" for some time until it all ran out.
The biggest challenge here was actually that tantruming dwarves will destroy farmland.  I made extensive use of Dwarf Therapist to remove the "planter" job from anybody with a "miserable" mood, and set 100 tiles worth of farmland (in 1x10 strips to minimize crop losses) to produce plump helmets non-stop.  The real saving factor though was that SEEDS ARE COOKABLE.  It was "water and plump hempet spawn biscuits" for some time.  I also trimmed down your large stockpiles to reveal open soil that periodically yielded shrubs that could be gathered.  This gave some early booze.

3.) NO BEDS!!!!
Your population was what, 150, and you had a grand total of like 10 beds in your entire fort?  Dwarves were falling asleep on the floor and having negative thoughts about "not having slept in a proper room".  I built 3 carpenter shops next to the wood stockpile and had them produce nothing but beds.  All wood was converted into beds (except for 5 stacks of wooden bolts for a marksdwarf security squad which proved invaluable in killing berserkers and cave toads, since the ammo bin had been dropped outside).  While under a legitimate goblin siege (not just an ambush) in the summer, I was forced to strip out every log I could find in the entire fort.  This involved deconstructing workshops that had been made with logs, and tearing up the wooden flooring that you used to seal off the cavern stairs, as well as tearing up some log staircases and a portion of your outer wall.  All logs, and all destined to be beds  (The z-stocks menu is invaluable for pinning down the location of stray resources).  Beds are SRS BZNS.  I built the beds in the engraved plus-shaped room that you had your forge in, since those would boost the room values.  I built them 1 tile apart from each other with the bed zones being 3x3 causing only single tile edge-overlaps (which doesn't penalize room value much).  I gave these "emergency rooms" to the most valuable dwarves to protect them from mood slippage, and as the bed quantity rose and the population fell, I was able to provide rooms for all.  I'm still in the process of digging out proper quarters for everybody and moving people out of the emergency housing, but it worked in eliminating a source of unhappy thoughts.

4.) Barely any industry!
When you have a large population in an undeveloped fort, you can't get by with just "One of each kind" for your workshops.  Trimming down your large wood and stone stockpiles, I made room for multiple workshops to be placed right next to their source materials for added efficiency.  At one point I had 4 mason's shops carving coffins non-stop.  I also enlarged the rooms in the "Dining hall level" and made a large and separated region for farms and food processing (so random tantrumers would kill tables instead of farms).  I had 3 kitchens constantly turning out seed-biscuits to feed the hungry and have them leave the plump helmets alone for brewing.  I also relocated the forge to next to your mega-stockpile.  That level had the most free space of anywhere and already help most of the raw materials, so I ended up relocating 80% of all my industry to there.  I also set up collection zones for fire clay and made lots of "Stoneware Statues" in the Kiln.  Stoneware has a material value of 4 (compared chert's 1, so the statues were 100 apiece instead of 25), and is an easy "free material" that only costs the fuel that you had in such great plenty that you built walls out of it.  I was baffled by this at first, but then realized that so long as there's no fuel shortage, why not use Coke bars as structural material.  And there is no fuel shortage, and won't be for a very long time.

5.) Cut off from metal! 
Tearing up the floorboards regained me access to the stairwell that led to the caverns, but more importantly, gave access to a vein of tetrahedrite.  Copper ore!  I mined that, smelted it up, and got axes and shields and light armor for a slightly pathetic melee squad.  Due to interruptions by wandering naked mole dogs and giant cave toads (which helped the food supply when killed) I too sealed off the stairwell, but much lower down (z110) so I could keep access to the precious copper (and silver!) ore.

6.) Injuries!
Dwarves were getting bruised broken and battered from the incessant fistfights, so I set up a hospital zone so that a doctor could take care of them.  Fortunately there was plenty of cloth available for bandages (and conversion into bags and ropes) splints and crutches, but thread had to be obtained by gathering wild pig-tails, otherwise no suturing could happen.
I also decided it would be best to have my population be dispersed so that fist-fights would be rarer.  I thus eliminated all meeting areas and allowed the dwarves to roam free.  I'm not certain if this was helpful or not happiness-wise (no social gatherings), but it did reduce property damage in the dining hall.

7.) Decoration. 
Your dining hall was quite nice, and was a consistent source of happy thoughts for dwarves who ate there.  there was a lack of tables though, which I had to fix.  It seems that 1 chair per table is the way to go, either that or just more tables.  At any rate lack of tables was a common complaint which I fixed.  I also set up statues in the hallways so that they could be gazed upon, and I experimented with Sculpture Gardens (assigning them to the mayor when I didn't like the looks of people loitering in the newly created meeting area).  Among my more ambitious projects though was to attempt to drain (tunnel to edge of map, then carve fortifications into the stone = infinite drain) the swimming pool which once would have served as a continuation of your central staircase.  You pierced aquifer there, and so my drainage attempt was only marginally successful due to the constant refilling.  It DID however create a pleasant mist which cleaned the dwarves and brightened their spirits...to the extent that an injured sober roomless dwarf who lost over half of their family can be made happier.  At any rate, it allowed for the retrieval of Rith the Drowned Miner for a proper burial and retrieval of his pickaxe.
I also re-arranged and spruced up the quarters for the Mayor and Captain of the Guard so that they could both be happy.  The fact that so many tiles were engraved helped with this immensly.  I was able to get "Decent" quarters for both of them.  This didn' stop the death of friends and family and the cares of the world from rendering them insane eventually, but I found suitable replacements.  And then more replacement mayors when they either went miserable (thus unable to console) or were turned into statues.
When playing around with Sculpture gardens I found that each item placed within its confines (memorial halls from slabs work the same) generated a separate happy thought, so I went and just plopped a variety of different items in them to see if that would maximize their effectiveness.  Don't know if it worked or not.


So yeah, that's kinda my story and maybe a bit of advice for you.  My guess is that you got overwhelmed by waves of eager migrants without any clear plan for what to do with them or where to stuff them, and hence found yourself with a horribly overcrowded fort.  It's easy to put off making beds and rooms for people, but it's really quite important.  Sleeping in a good room is a steady supply of happiness.  Oh, also, pasture your livestock in PROTECTED areas, otherwise the goblins will come and kill them all.  But you already found this out, the hard way.

One last note about bridges as gates: Don't make them 1 tile wide!  It makes it extremely difficult to tell whether they are open or shut, which is a really rather important thing to know.  I ended up supplementing all your bridges with 2-wide partners behind them tied to the the same levers, levers that were walled off behind locked doors so tantruming dwarves wouldn't break them.

Thanks for the challenge!
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Foolprooof way to penetrate aquifers of unlimited depth.  (Make sure to import at least 10 stones for mechanisms)
Toughen Dwarves by dropping stuff on them.  (Nothing too heavy though, and make sure to wear armor.)
Quote
"Urist had a little lamb
whose feet tracked blighted soot.
And into every face he saw
his sooty foot he put."
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