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[Hoggypare]

@Hoggypare
Perhaps a way to accomplish this would be to give the evil player a hand of event cards. Each turn they pick the event card that they want to play and draw a new event card from the deck. Then the 'kobold thief' attack (or whatever weak attack that they draw) would gum up their hand until they play it, but would not actually force them to play it if they preferred to keep it in their hand. Perhaps as the game progresses, the evil player would be able to play multiple attacks per turn (maybe one attack per artifact that the good player has or something like that)

I have some ideas about how to make the challenge keep up with the dwarven player progress, but actually this one of launching more attacks after certain accomplishments seems interesting. Thanks for a hint.

Yes, exactly.  The "evil" player would, of course, have better and worse cards, and after that it's a matter of play balance to keep it fun.

If players need encouragement not to be "passive," there are options.  For instance: suppose hand size is small and card draw is large.  This is what Card Hunter plans to do (to an extreme): draw two cards per turn, discard down to two at the end.  Pretty "active" play there.

But I believe that Hoggypare understands all this and has a different sort of vision.  Hopefully these suggestions are helpful.

Ok honestly I don't know if I certainly have different sort of vision Because seriously I can't determine that before playtesting. Hell, I don't know yet what the resource system for 'evil' player should be. I have many ideas but they need testing, then I may choose the best. Because theory can always differ from practice. I just explained my concerns, but that doesn't mean I said 'no'. It means that I might use them if I come to conclusion they are needed. Therefore I say - you guys are extremely helpful, even if I don't quite agree with everything.

EDIT: And thanks for that link. I was looking for some good online ccg and this one looks really promising. And it's artstyle... amazing!

[Rexfelum]

EDIT: And thanks for that link. I was looking for some good online ccg and this one looks really promising. And it's artstyle... amazing!

Annnnnd it's created by some of the same folks who made Thief, System Shock, and BioShock.  With consultation from the folks who made Magic: The Gathering.

Has there been a thread on Bay 12 about Card Hunter yet?  Yes?  No?  Because I could seriously derail your thread if I kept talking about it.

--Rexfelum

[Neonivek]

I don't know... does the game need an evil player?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

But... In the age of computerized graphics, multiple layers and stuff, later on if I finish my game I can adjust some cards to a boardgame. As long as someone else makes the game itself and my name as co-author is on cards... I would never say no.

I might want to help a bit with a boardgame too.

Here's the thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115183.0

[Hoggypare]

I don't know... does the game need an evil player?

Yes. Card games are fun when played with friends, not alone. I don't think a cooperative game would work here and honestly it is always more fun to kick somebody's ass.

Annnnnd it's created by some of the same folks who made Thief, System Shock, and BioShock.  With consultation from the folks who made Magic: The Gathering.

Has there been a thread on Bay 12 about Card Hunter yet?  Yes?  No?  Because I could seriously derail your thread if I kept talking about it.

Yeah, something like All Stars. And perhaps you should make one. Even though this game interests me as well, I'd rather keep the thread just about my game, to avoid confusion. I quite need it 'cause as I stated - any feedback is very useful to me.

Here's the thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115183.0

I'll check out. However you shouldn't expect my card designs and especially drawings anytime soon. I am quite busy at the moment - I am working part-time in a factory, also I should finish some university projects and read some stuff. Ah and there is a comic competition I'd like to attend to, so... that is a lot to do honestly. I'll do my best but even my first playtesting might be on saturday/sunday.

[Neonivek]

Yes. Card games are fun when played with friends, not alone. I don't think a cooperative game would work here and honestly it is always more fun to kick somebody's ass

Co-op isn't the only kind of games with no badguy.

For example there is "Score" where the goal is to do the best, "Race" where the goal is to achieve something first, and "Knockout" where the goal is to stay in the game the longest. Sometimes these include ways to sabatage the other players.

What I mean is... does there have to be another player playing the "Bad guys" as in the demons, goblins, elves, humans, animals, THAT THING BEHIND YOU!?!

[Hoggypare]

Co-op isn't the only kind of games with no badguy.

For example there is "Score" where the goal is to do the best, "Race" where the goal is to achieve something first, and "Knockout" where the goal is to stay in the game the longest. Sometimes these include ways to sabatage the other players.

What I mean is... does there have to be another player playing the "Bad guys" as in the demons, goblins, elves, humans, animals, THAT THING BEHIND YOU!?!

Yes. Mostly because I don't want random experience. There should be mind behind 'evil' actions, because then the challenge can be provided constantly with progressive difficulty. I also believe that most fun comes from direct clash not running for some points or from some other indirect competition.
And it's not just 'bad guys' player, but rather 'every-misfortune-that-can-happen' player. I won't lie that my personal preference doesn't play a big role here - I am looking forward to playing the 'evil' deck, because I know it would be extremely satisfactory - driving your opponent to tears, sabotaging his every effort to build his puny fortress . No I definetely don't want to abandon this idea.

[tootboot]

Hopefully you have people (yes, people, even for a 2 player game) to playtest with

[theTrueMikeBrown]

In response to tootbot's comment (but directed at hoggypare)

I know that you said that you are not a software engineer, but if you built a vassal module then you could release the game in a playtestable form before you were entirely solid on the balance. Making a vassal module is pretty simple, and anyone can download vassal for free, so anyone who wanted to (who also had a windows, linux, or mac computer) could play it.

I know that this might seem a little premature (since you are not even ready to playtest it and won't be until you finish crafting the cards and coming up with the rules), but perhaps when playtesting time comes that would be useful.

[Hoggypare]

Hopefully you have people (yes, people, even for a 2 player game) to playtest with

I guess you are implying that playing the game with just one of my friends wouldn't be enough, because different people spot different problems. Perhaps, but I want just to check some basic things. Try to find the best rules, but keeping everything subject to change. Then more people will get to playtest these rules that emerged in first turn of playtesting

In response to tootbot's comment (but directed at hoggypare)

I know that you said that you are not a software engineer, but if you built a vassal module then you could release the game in a playtestable form before you were entirely solid on the balance. Making a vassal module is pretty simple, and anyone can download vassal for free, so anyone who wanted to (who also had a windows, linux, or mac computer) could play it.

I know that this might seem a little premature (since you are not even ready to playtest it and won't be until you finish crafting the cards and coming up with the rules), but perhaps when playtesting time comes that would be useful.

I will check that out, although I don't know if it would be simple enough for me. How about I release pdf pages containing test versions of cards (I mean without most drawings and other eyecandy stuff) so anyone can print them and check out if they want? It may be beneficial also because you can take notes on cards and perhaps test the different values etc.

[theTrueMikeBrown]

If you posted a black and white pdf of the cards I would print them out, cut them up, and try them.

I can't guarantee that anyone else will, though. I tried the same thing here a few months back with my card game, but no-one was willing to give it a shot. It is possible that I didn't talk it up enough, but it was a bit of a let down.

(This is sort of the reason why I am trying to be helpful - It sucks to put something out there and not have anyone help you out on it.)

[Hoggypare]

If you posted a black and white pdf of the cards I would print them out, cut them up, and try them.

I can't guarantee that anyone else will, though. I tried the same thing here a few months back with my card game, but no-one was willing to give it a shot. It is possible that I didn't talk it up enough, but it was a bit of a let down.

(This is sort of the reason why I am trying to be helpful - It sucks to put something out there and not have anyone help you out on it.)

Well if someone would think of it as some kind of problem I don't think such a person would be willing to provide any useful feedback at all.
To be honest, I make the game for myself as well, so if no one responded I would make this anyway. But the more I am happy to hear some insightful feedback and that there are some people actually interested.

Ah and send me those links - to the pdf's and rules if they are not included in files.

[theTrueMikeBrown]

It has been a while since I posted them online (most of the stuff online already was taken down to save me google docs space.)

I will update my black and white versions of the cards and send you a link to the files, but it might take me till tomorrow to update the B&W image files.

[tootboot]

I guess you are implying that playing the game with just one of my friends wouldn't be enough, because different people spot different problems.

Yes, this.  I would make a terrible playtester for a game, for instance, because I tend to play games the way I think the designer intended for them to play, rather than looking for the easiest way to break them.  A lot of people are the same way, and even those that aren't might pick up on a broken combo that someone else missed.

[theTrueMikeBrown]

Yes, this.  I would make a terrible playtester for a game, for instance, because I tend to play games the way I think the designer intended for them to play, rather than looking for the easiest way to break them.  A lot of people are the same way, and even those that aren't might pick up on a broken combo that someone else missed.

A side note: I am a software engineer and my best playtesters are actually QA from my dev team at work. They try intentionally to break the game. It is infuriating but really useful. If you know any QA engineers, try to get them to play your game. That is a guaranteed way to find bugs.