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[Prometheusmfd]

2. Normal laws against violence do not adequately protect minorities. If you just have blanket laws against lynchings, somehow blacks end up getting lynched an awful lot. If you have laws against assault, gays still end up getting assaulted disproportionately more than straights. The laws are meant to act as a deterrent, but in the cases of minorities, they don't sufficiently deter crimes.

But can you demonstrate that stacking on hate crime legislation acts as a deterrent? If it can't, then it doesn't do anything for minorities.

I'm pretty sure that if someone is going to commit a crime solely on someone's race/religion/creed/whathaveyou, they aren't concerned with laws.
Actually, I was a bit surprised the the guy in the original article went and bought his own gun.

@Prometheusmfd - If it makes you feel better, I dislike all bigoted religions equally. Yours just tends to be more vocal about it. And fie upon thee for claiming persecution. The strong dislike I feel for your religion doesn't deny you rights. It doesn't cause people to try to shame you for having a sex life. It doesn't cause people to try to 'cure' you by sending you to re-education centers. It's just a constant opposition to your beliefs.

The man who committed this crime was off his rocker.

Actually, I'm atheist. I just don't have blinders on

[Leafsnail]

We shouldn't call the perpetrator crazy until he's actually had his trial.  Dimissing all the problems in society as the work of the metally ill is not productive.

[Urist_McDrowner]

Hate crime laws exist for two reasons:

1. The majority attacking the minority has the potential to do greater damage through terrorizing the entire community. This shooting won't make anyone in the straight community fear for their lives. Hell, it's incredibly obvious in this discussion. The most important topic isn't whether there will be more pro-gay shootings, because nobody's afraid of that. Nobody has mentioned that so far. Anti-gay shootings are entirely different in their ability to silence and terrify whole communities because the members of the gay community know they're under the constant threat of the same thing happening to them.

2. Normal laws against violence do not adequately protect minorities. If you just have blanket laws against lynchings, somehow blacks end up getting lynched an awful lot. If you have laws against assault, gays still end up getting assaulted disproportionately more than straights. The laws are meant to act as a deterrent, but in the cases of minorities, they don't sufficiently deter crimes.

Why though? Do you ever kill someone because you like them? Why does a crazy man punching three gay men in the name of Fritos get a worse punishment than punching one gay man for being gay?

[Putnam]

Yes Christianity is clearly an oppressed minority in the US

Do you pay attention at all? The entire liberal world considers Christianity a butt-monkey for their amusement and almost as some sort of vast religion of evil. There are an assload of people on this very forum who disdain Christianity as a whole. Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean that they can't be made fun of. You may live in a conservative, Christian-populated area like me, but that doesn't stop most of the world from saying "lolchristians".

[Urist Imiknorris]

I think it's pretty well understood that there being Christian morons doesn't mean Christians are morons.

[Prometheusmfd]

I think it's pretty well understood that there being Christian morons doesn't mean Christians are morons.

Yet many people unfortunately don't act on that, and it only makes things worse for everyone.

[Owlga]

That doesn't change the fact that the shooting was politically and not religiously motivated. So it can't be a hate crime.

Unless you've been making the assumption that every conservative is a christian bigot, then it would be a hate crime.

[nenjin]

I think it's pretty well understood that there being Christian morons doesn't mean Christians are morons.

Yet many people unfortunately don't act on that, and it only makes things worse for everyone.

The world's most generic statement.

Honestly I don't know whether this is a hate crime or not. Stuff like this is now so deeply interwoven into political debates that it's impossible to tease them apart anymore except by trying to stick to legal definitions that often ignore context. Like, the Sikh temple shooting? Political, racial or religious? What about if a shooting happened at a Church that openly embraces gay members, or that self-identifed as gay?

The fact he was carrying all those sandwiches while going after a conservative, religious target says crazy to me. Because the logic connection between those two things really isn't there. Maybe he just freaking loved the sandwiches, who knows.

[Glowcat]

Yes Christianity is clearly an oppressed minority in the US

Do you pay attention at all? The entire liberal world considers Christianity a butt-monkey for their amusement and almost as some sort of vast religion of evil. There are an assload of people on this very forum who disdain Christianity as a whole. Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean that they can't be made fun of. You may live in a conservative, Christian-populated area like me, but that doesn't stop most of the world from saying "lolchristians".

Yes, really helping your case that Christians are an oppressed minority when the best you can come up with is mockery in response to tangible harm being done in the name of the religion.

[Urist_McDrowner]

Yes Christianity is clearly an oppressed minority in the US

Do you pay attention at all? The entire liberal world considers Christianity a butt-monkey for their amusement and almost as some sort of vast religion of evil. There are an assload of people on this very forum who disdain Christianity as a whole. Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean that they can't be made fun of. You may live in a conservative, Christian-populated area like me, but that doesn't stop most of the world from saying "lolchristians".

Yes, really helping your case that Christians are an oppressed minority when the best you can come up with is mockery in response to tangible harm being done in the name of the religion.

But when people run planes into towers in the name of Islam, that's not Islam's fault, right?

[Prometheusmfd]

Yes Christianity is clearly an oppressed minority in the US

Do you pay attention at all? The entire liberal world considers Christianity a butt-monkey for their amusement and almost as some sort of vast religion of evil. There are an assload of people on this very forum who disdain Christianity as a whole. Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean that they can't be made fun of. You may live in a conservative, Christian-populated area like me, but that doesn't stop most of the world from saying "lolchristians".

Yes, really helping your case that Christians are an oppressed minority when the best you can come up with is mockery in response to tangible harm being done in the name of the religion.

There really is only a small part of Christianity that's even vocal about homosexuality (let alone those who are fine with it, which is a surprisingly large group). And to hate the whole for the actions of the few is never a good thing.

[palsch]

With regard to federal hate crime laws;

The main purpose is actually to enable federal prosecution of crimes that may not be fully prosecuted locally.

Let's take a town that is 90%+ white, with an active KKK branch, openly racist or race baiting politics, and an elected chief of police, chief prosecutor and judge. A black man gets assaulted. How likely is that black man to get justice in that town? How many resources are the local police going to put into the investigation?

Hate crime laws allow a federal prosecutor to take over the case and use federal resources to help ensure there is a fair hearing for such minorities. As such they are designed to cover minorities against whom there is systematic and institutionalised prejudice.

In reality they are written more broadly, so cover all relevant crimes based on religion or race, even if it's a majority, non-persecuted group in question (occasionally crimes committed against someone for being white are prosecuted as hate crimes) But it's worth understanding the original purpose. State hate crime laws and penalty enhancement for hate crimes are simply reflections that we prosecute crimes differently based on motivation and intent, and arguably can and should be rolled into sentencing guidelines rather than written as independent laws.


I'm not confident saying if this was a hate crime or not. It appears to be domestic terrorism.

[Neonivek]

And Obama doesn't consider it a hate crime.

Hate crime designation seems like a silly pseudo crime anyway that doesn't make much sense to me at all.

I still don't even have a explanation as to why it still exists.

It is, to those wondering, is a way to hitting people they cannot give larger crimes harsher sentences by removing the requirement for evidence that they were intending to commit a specific act. In otherwords it is an "Intent Crime" free from "Act".

Basically it is the same type of crime as "Breaking and Entering"

As for people's ill view of religion, especially the Catholic/Christian religions.

It is because people view any events with a very limited scope of thinking process that stems from how history is taught in the first place (which is a narrative style, rather then one that tries to obtain any true understanding.). Thus the Underlying cause of all wars according to the average person is: Religion.

Thus ALL war ever was caused dirrectly religion. Thus that is why Religion is pure evil.

If you are wondering why it is Christianity that fallen under it... It is because the Holocaust and the Crusades are the two most well events involving Religion.

I am of course wrong, but I am a bit frustrated at hearing simplified Crusades explanations that don't understand... well... the crusades.

The main purpose is actually to enable federal prosecution of crimes that may not be fully prosecuted locally.

Let's take a town that is 90%+ white, with an active KKK branch, openly racist or race baiting politics, and an elected chief of police, chief prosecutor and judge. A black man gets assaulted. How likely is that black man to get justice in that town? How many resources are the local police going to put into the investigation?

Well that actually makes a lot of sense ESPECIALLY for when that law started to be enacted. In fact for the USA I'd perfectly accept that as the most logical explanation. Mind you, it sounds like Internal Affairs isn't doing its job... but whatever.

Though it doesn't explain why some other countries started to adopt it.

[Urist_McDrowner]

With regard to federal hate crime laws;

The main purpose is actually to enable federal prosecution of crimes that may not be fully prosecuted locally.

Let's take a town that is 90%+ white, with an active KKK branch, openly racist or race baiting politics, and an elected chief of police, chief prosecutor and judge. A black man gets assaulted. How likely is that black man to get justice in that town? How many resources are the local police going to put into the investigation?

Hate crime laws allow a federal prosecutor to take over the case and use federal resources to help ensure there is a fair hearing for such minorities. As such they are designed to cover minorities against whom there is systematic and institutionalised prejudice.

In reality they are written more broadly, so cover all relevant crimes based on religion or race, even if it's a majority, non-persecuted group in question (occasionally crimes committed against someone for being white are prosecuted as hate crimes) But it's worth understanding the original purpose. State hate crime laws and penalty enhancement for hate crimes are simply reflections that we prosecute crimes differently based on motivation and intent, and arguably can and should be rolled into sentencing guidelines rather than written as independent laws.


I'm not confident saying if this was a hate crime or not. It appears to be domestic terrorism.

So why should the penalty for hate crimes exceed the standard penalty for the crime?

[Bdthemag]

Yes Christianity is clearly an oppressed minority in the US

Do you pay attention at all? The entire liberal world considers Christianity a butt-monkey for their amusement and almost as some sort of vast religion of evil. There are an assload of people on this very forum who disdain Christianity as a whole. Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean that they can't be made fun of. You may live in a conservative, Christian-populated area like me, but that doesn't stop most of the world from saying "lolchristians".

Yes, really helping your case that Christians are an oppressed minority when the best you can come up with is mockery in response to tangible harm being done in the name of the religion.

There really is only a small part of Christianity that's even vocal about homosexuality (let alone those who are fine with it, which is a surprisingly large group). And to hate the whole for the actions of the few is never a good thing.

Again, people don't hate Christianity because of a few vocal people, I mean they don't even as you put it "Hate" them. People simply just don't agree with some of the ideas of Christianity, and criticize them. I know very few people who hate Christianity, most people don't agree or like it but tolerate it anyways.