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[Owlbread]

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

I know this thread is meant to be about magic, but modern science doesn't owe its existence entirely to the medieval monastery. It also owes it to the dozens of ancient scientists in Egypt, Greece, the Far East and the Islamic World. Think about the massive contributions Muslim scientists have given to the world of medicine and biology.

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

Modern science may be considered a "miracle," but it was not connected to God in any notable way. Not directly; priests may have helped, but God did not. If He did, he thinks in odd ways and conceals His work well.

Let's see if I have this straight; because I have some doubts as to whether I understand you.

You don't believe in god.

The miracle I use must come from god.

You've got a grasp on history and have your own explanations for the miracles of the bible, so it has to be something else.  And the miracle of life and other such everyday experiences also do not cut it for you.

And this is all for the purpose of enlightening me as to why priests in a fantasy world must be magical instead of mundane?

There is actually a lot of beauty in the coincidences people consider to be divine. My explanation for the miracles in the bible though is that they're a bunch of nonsense and never happened, rather they are a part of a story designed to morally educate people.

Of course, this sort of thing is not to say that monks were not scientists. Think of Gregor Mendel. It just may not be in keeping with Dwarven culture, but I don't know if I really have enough evidence of that to show you.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

Modern science may be considered a "miracle," but it was not connected to God in any notable way. Not directly; priests may have helped, but God did not. If He did, he thinks in odd ways and conceals His work well.

Let's see if I have this straight; because I have some doubts as to whether I understand you.

You don't believe in god.

The miracle I use must come from god.

You've got a grasp on history and have your own explanations for the miracles of the bible, so it has to be something else.  And the miracle of life and other such everyday experiences also do not cut it for you.

And this is all for the purpose of enlightening me as to why priests in a fantasy world must be magical instead of mundane?

Let's not turn this into a religious debate. If gods grant miracles, on a consistent, reliable basis, that's similar to magic. If a priest can ask his/her god to heal a cripple, that's similar enough to a healing spell that a game with both might as well use the same framework for it. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

And in case anyone cares, I think that the Bible is what people saw at the time, slowly changed by word-of-mouth until biblical stories started being written books instead of told by word-of-mouth.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

Modern science may be considered a "miracle," but it was not connected to God in any notable way. Not directly; priests may have helped, but God did not. If He did, he thinks in odd ways and conceals His work well.

Let's see if I have this straight; because I have some doubts as to whether I understand you.

You don't believe in god.

The miracle I use must come from god.

You've got a grasp on history and have your own explanations for the miracles of the bible, so it has to be something else.  And the miracle of life and other such everyday experiences also do not cut it for you.

And this is all for the purpose of enlightening me as to why priests in a fantasy world must be magical instead of mundane?

Let's not turn this into a religious debate. If gods grant miracles, on a consistent, reliable basis, that's similar to magic. If a priest can ask his/her god to heal a cripple, that's similar enough to a healing spell that a game with both might as well use the same framework for it. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

And in case anyone cares, I think that the Bible is what people saw at the time, slowly changed by word-of-mouth until biblical stories started being written books instead of told by word-of-mouth.

I just asked questions, I'm not debating religion with you!  If you want the game to use the same framework for spells as miracles, then why should those who receive miracles have to lead a prayer service to replenish their magic?  That effectively limits miracles to priests.  And though a priest might moonlight as a doctor, what if their god isn't associated with healing?

Deities spheres are pretty much random, and should the civilization worship a deity of fortune, does that mean the priests should be blessing people with luck at casinos?  I would think it more fitting for a professional gambler to be the one blessing luck, while the priests just preach the glories of their lucky god, in a chapel.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

Modern science may be considered a "miracle," but it was not connected to God in any notable way. Not directly; priests may have helped, but God did not. If He did, he thinks in odd ways and conceals His work well.

Let's see if I have this straight; because I have some doubts as to whether I understand you.

You don't believe in god.

The miracle I use must come from god.

You've got a grasp on history and have your own explanations for the miracles of the bible, so it has to be something else.  And the miracle of life and other such everyday experiences also do not cut it for you.

And this is all for the purpose of enlightening me as to why priests in a fantasy world must be magical instead of mundane?

Let's not turn this into a religious debate. If gods grant miracles, on a consistent, reliable basis, that's similar to magic. If a priest can ask his/her god to heal a cripple, that's similar enough to a healing spell that a game with both might as well use the same framework for it. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

And in case anyone cares, I think that the Bible is what people saw at the time, slowly changed by word-of-mouth until biblical stories started being written books instead of told by word-of-mouth.

I just asked questions, I'm not debating religion with you!  If you want the game to use the same framework for spells as miracles, then why should those who receive miracles have to lead a prayer service to replenish their magic?  That effectively limits miracles to priests.  And though a priest might moonlight as a doctor, what if their god isn't associated with healing?

Deities spheres are pretty much random, and should the civilization worship a deity of fortune, does that mean the priests should be blessing people with luck at casinos?  I would think it more fitting for a professional gambler to be the one blessing luck, while the priests just preach the glories of their lucky god, in a chapel.

Given the amount of real-world priests you used as evidence against priests having regular or predictable miracles, ie "divine spells," and certain sentences which seemed to assume that my agnosticism was relevant to the discussion, I hope you can understand my mistake.
Professional gamblers seem awfully unlikely to be particularly pious. Sure, a pious gambler might be able to call down miracles (i.e, "divine spells"), but that would make him a priest (i.e, a "divine spellcaster") for the purposes of this conversation. And I think you're the only person who thinks that, for instance, Ares would be more likely to grant the prayers of a Persian or Norse warrior than a faithful Greek priest or whatever.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I gave you one, the miracle of modern science, in the form of medicine for healing and radio and flight for the airstrike example.  It actually owes its existence to the medieval monastery, but other than that it and priests have little to do with each other.

Modern science may be considered a "miracle," but it was not connected to God in any notable way. Not directly; priests may have helped, but God did not. If He did, he thinks in odd ways and conceals His work well.

Let's see if I have this straight; because I have some doubts as to whether I understand you.

You don't believe in god.

The miracle I use must come from god.

You've got a grasp on history and have your own explanations for the miracles of the bible, so it has to be something else.  And the miracle of life and other such everyday experiences also do not cut it for you.

And this is all for the purpose of enlightening me as to why priests in a fantasy world must be magical instead of mundane?

Let's not turn this into a religious debate. If gods grant miracles, on a consistent, reliable basis, that's similar to magic. If a priest can ask his/her god to heal a cripple, that's similar enough to a healing spell that a game with both might as well use the same framework for it. That's essentially what I'm trying to say.

And in case anyone cares, I think that the Bible is what people saw at the time, slowly changed by word-of-mouth until biblical stories started being written books instead of told by word-of-mouth.

I just asked questions, I'm not debating religion with you!  If you want the game to use the same framework for spells as miracles, then why should those who receive miracles have to lead a prayer service to replenish their magic?  That effectively limits miracles to priests.  And though a priest might moonlight as a doctor, what if their god isn't associated with healing?

Deities spheres are pretty much random, and should the civilization worship a deity of fortune, does that mean the priests should be blessing people with luck at casinos?  I would think it more fitting for a professional gambler to be the one blessing luck, while the priests just preach the glories of their lucky god, in a chapel.

Given the amount of real-world priests you used as evidence against priests having regular or predictable miracles, ie "divine spells," and certain sentences which seemed to assume that my agnosticism was relevant to the discussion, I hope you can understand my mistake.
Professional gamblers seem awfully unlikely to be particularly pious. Sure, a pious gambler might be able to call down miracles (i.e, "divine spells"), but that would make him a priest (i.e, a "divine spellcaster") for the purposes of this conversation. And I think you're the only person who thinks that, for instance, Ares would be more likely to grant the prayers of a Persian or Norse warrior than a faithful Greek priest or whatever.

I wasn't clear, but it wasn't some random gambler, but a beleiver in the procedurally generated god of luck.  I do  think that if Ares was real, he'd more likely grant the prayers of a warrior that worshipped him than a priest that worshipped him just as much. 

So just being able to call down miracles is your definition of a priest?  That's actually my definition of a thaumaturgist, my definition of priest is the one who leads the faithful in worship, ministers to their spiritual health(not medical advice!), and writes sermons.  Those that do heal physically, I call healers or doctors, and having them dependent on leading the faithful in worship to gain magic, while not unreasonable, is not something I would want in my fortress.

I would want my healers to regain magic in the same way as my wizards.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Breaking the pyramid.

Maybe so, but...yeah, clarity is nice. Yes, priests should practice their god's chosen activities and not be as blessed as if they didn't. Normal worshippers who practice the god's favored activity but have most of their life outside the church--the DF equivalent of a RL Christian who goes to church on Sundays and perhaps participates in a fundraiser or two, while his living is made at whatever God's domain is--would not be as blessed as most priests. Any objections?
My definition of priest as relating to a discussion on who should be able to "cast divine spells" is people who have worshiped a god and followed its precepts enough to be able to call down miracles on a fairly regular and predictable basis, because "proest" is a lot shorter.
Healers who do not draw their powers from gods should probably exist, and should use the same coding framework, but are distinct from priests.

[gbrngfol]

I think a few people are getting their priests, healers, clerics and satanists mixed up.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Where did satanist come in?

And I'm not confusing them, although" cleric" is probably a better term for what I was using "priest" to mean so I'll use it from now on.

[gbrngfol]

I kinda meant the leaders of said satanists. From what I've read they believe that Satan will give them divine power if they worship him. Currently the priests mentioned a few posts ago seem to meet this description more accurately than the more churchy one.

[xoseph]

Oh god. . .dwarf satan?

[Radiant_Phoenix]

Well, there are four levels of magic according to TV tropes:
1) Mundane magic is so subtle it is missed by most observers. A magic dance that can cause someone to fall in love, or a pair of boots that prevent you from tiring on long treks. No fireballs, no summonings, maybe a few ghosts. Think X-files or certain parts of the LOTR.

2) Rare magic that requires magical bloodlines, destiny, training, etc. You might be able to cause an avalanche or create a fire, but your not going to cast lightning from your wand. Think Gandolf, he didn't cast fireballs in fights, but he could fire lightning at a balrog.

3) Fantasy magic is like Harry Potter or Dragon Age, where it seems like there is magic everywhere. Fireballs, animorphs and curses are used for DoT effects instead of story or strategy. Expect to find some mages selling karma sutra magic books.

4) High magic has beings of magical origin, such as fey, demons and angels doing magical things just like it were normal. Using teleportation spells to move around, using fireballs as a primary attack and using healing potions like candy. Oblivion is like this.

I personally like number 2 myself, but number 4 could work with HFS. A clown capable of turning a 'cotton candy' armour into actual cotton candy armour is rather appealing to me. I believe that level 3 and 4 should be unreachable for dwarfs, but that is just me.

I find your scalar measure of magic to be less useful than a vector definition.

Dimensions: (where X is something you consider magic)

• How big of a deal people in-world make about X? [Fame] (x(1))
• How much "big" are the effects of X? [Scope] (x(2))
• How useful is X? [Utility] (x(3))
• How hard/unlikely is it for you to be able to use X? [Rarity] (x(4))
• How dangerous is X to you and yours? [Danger] (x(5))

I could easily have made more or less axes (For example, Rarity could have been subdivided into 'rarity' and 'commitment'), but this seemed like a good start

Magic should not be just one, "thing".

There should be worlds generated where spitting fireballs is as common as microcline and half as dangerous (to use), while hylomancy is a rare and terrible gift that has only been seen twice in recorded history, but when it did it shaped the next hundred generations.
There should be worlds where things go the other way too.

Suggestions:

• High scope effects should almost always (most worldgens) have high rarity, and the majority should remain 'sealed' through worldgen (possibly in HFS)
• The number of high fame, low rarity effects should be about zero
• It should be possible to define custom magic, and to define some or all of its extrinsic (fame, rarity) properties as you choose.
• It should be possible to attach defined or procedurally-generated magic to any RAW-defined or procedurally-generated object (including words and body plans)
• It should be possible to add tags to a RAW-defined object that affect what procedurally-generated magic can be attached to it, and the likelihood of each.
• There should be worldgen settings for as many aspects of the procedurally-generated parts of this as is reasonably convenient

Also, spheres seem like at least as good a way as any to categorize magic.

[Neonivek]

As for Priests getting divine magic from being faithful.

It really should depend on the world and its settings.

A world where anyone who truely commits to a diety gets a share of its power is a world where that feat is easy to obtain and should reflect that. Obviously by having religion take an even greater role then usual.

I do not picture that as standard. Certainly if a diety wants to bestow powers and abilities onto someone or if he is going to listen to anyone it might as well be one of his faithful as opposed to some loser who barely spoke to him before... but there are a lot of priests and not all of them are going to gain divine service from their divine patron/matron.

This is of course ignoring settings where diety flavored magic exists and worship taps you into it.

[Adrian]

I'd prefer to see
-"magic" as something only deities can preform and the mortals can only ask the deities for favors
 -Deities only being able to influence things in their respective spheres.
-A deity's power being proportional to the amount of worship it receives from around the world
 -This wouldn't have to end with deities. A vampire with a large enough cult following could gain special abilities as well.

or runic magic in any way, shape or form. Simply because it's dwarfy

But the two are hardly mutually exclusive

[Darkond2100]

I like the idea on maximum uses and limits on spells. And crafting spells is something that's been talked about A LOT for the past three years. I'm one of those who thinks that spells should be discoverable, and then craftable using the right materials. I'll try to explain what's in my head

Lets say >Urist McHunter comes across an odd stone with some engravings on it while hunting!
Now Urist McHunter was able to recognize the runestone he came across while hunting because he's Adept in Arcane magic.
>Urist McHunter drags it back home to the stockpile for later use
Later, during a little surprise, you order >Urist McWizard to use runestone on escaping Goblin Kidnapper. Goblin Kidnapper is Struck by Lightning!
Well crap, you just used your only freaking runestone, and you don't know how to craft any more.

Next time Urist McHunter comes across a runestone you've learned your lesson on conserving spells.
>New Migrants have arrived!
Among the new migrants is a Urista McLibrarian, sensing that you have a runestonowe! You build her a library, and she tells you that the newest runestone is Arrow Greater! Not that she can use it, she's just a Librarian. But she can make crappy copies of the original (as she really isn't that experienced).
>A Goblin Invasion comes to town, angry at the death of the kidnappers and starving with maternal affection for anything infantlike. They approach your fort, and you slowly target each Goblin with a low quality Arrow Greater. They don't die, but they're injured enough for your army to finish off. The end!

[xoseph]

Has procedural generated magic already been discussed?