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[GreatWyrmGold]

Why wouldn't there be underground magic in DF? There's a bunch of underground magical critters.

[xoseph]

my (2)-copper coins-
Whenever I have thought about magic in DF, I always pictured it as a cabal of wizards performing the spell casting labor in a room full of statues, slabs, barrels of blood, with the intent of causing it to rain trout, or to resurrect a legendary cheese maker..

[Owlbread]

my (2)-copper coins-
Whenever I have thought about magic in DF, I always pictured it as a cabal of wizards performing the spell casting labor in a room full of statues, slabs, barrels of blood, with the intent of causing it to rain trout, or to resurrect a legendary cheese maker..

My thoughts exactly.

[dwarf_sadist]

Well, there are four levels of magic according to TV tropes:
1) Mundane magic is so subtle it is missed by most observers. A magic dance that can cause someone to fall in love, or a pair of boots that prevent you from tiring on long treks. No fireballs, no summonings, maybe a few ghosts. Think X-files or certain parts of the LOTR.

2) Rare magic that requires magical bloodlines, destiny, training, etc. You might be able to cause an avalanche or create a fire, but your not going to cast lightning from your wand. Think Gandolf, he didn't cast fireballs in fights, but he could fire lightning at a balrog.

3) Fantasy magic is like Harry Potter or Dragon Age, where it seems like there is magic everywhere. Fireballs, animorphs and curses are used for DoT effects instead of story or strategy. Expect to find some mages selling karma sutra magic books.

4) High magic has beings of magical origin, such as fey, demons and angels doing magical things just like it were normal. Using teleportation spells to move around, using fireballs as a primary attack and using healing potions like candy. Oblivion is like this.

I personally like number 2 myself, but number 4 could work with HFS. A clown capable of turning a 'cotton candy' armour into actual cotton candy armour is rather appealing to me. I believe that level 3 and 4 should be unreachable for dwarfs, but that is just me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Level 1 or 2 makes sense for most things. Elves and perhaps the demonic magic of the goblins might creep towards 3, but that's the limit.
Except for things like night creatures and clowns. They might get away with 4.

[gbrngfol]

Level 1 or 2 makes sense for most things. Elves and perhaps the demonic magic of the goblins might creep towards 3, but that's the limit.
Except for things like night creatures and clowns. They might get away with 4.

Rabbits seem to already get away with magic. When war trained they can chew through a steel helmet just to rip a gobly's ear off.

[Owlbread]

Perhaps individual civilisations could have set starting levels of magical development - some Dwarven civs may be closer to level 2 where magicians and court wizards are prized and held in high esteem, whereas others may be closer to levels 3 and 4 if magical skills are widespread amongst the population. Depending on their rulers and their dispositions towards magic, this civ-wide proficiency may rise and fall. The kind of "power goal" there is that a very ancient Dwarven civilisation could completely shun magic and execute those amongst them who practise it because back in the mists of time, they were once a level 3/4 magical society where magi were even innkeepers using magical spells to teleport flagons of ale onto tables. Eventually, the wizards became too powerful and dabbled in magic that was too strong, causing plagues of magical illnesses and plagues to sweep across the land, and great rifts to appear in the ground to swallow up towns. All magic was banned thereafter.

I believe that it should eventually be possible for extremely powerful wizards to literally move mountains with their magical power, or drain seas.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Level 3 magic should be rare, and level 4 restricted to really powerful magical beings. This is as much for game reasons and tone as anything.

[xoseph]

Level 1 would be nice for artifacts.  Level 2 would be alright if the effects were tempered.  Level 3 is not really that cool.  Level 4 already exists, I think, what with gods turning people into weresheep, etc.

For some reason I just don't want to see dwarves running around with magic wands and funny hats shooting lightning bolts at things.

Now, rites that ward off winter, drive away the undead, accelerate the growth of trees, turn lead into gold, well, those are ideas that I'm comfortable with.

[xoseph]

Basically, magic should be an optional industry, like farming or cheesemaking, and but not overwhelmingly powerful enough to be THE industry, or even a necessary industry.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Magic should be more of a tool than an industry, IMHO. Industries turn raw materials into uniquish goods; tools let you do that better.

[xoseph]

Magic should be more of a tool than an industry, IMHO. Industries turn raw materials into uniquish goods; tools let you do that better.

Semantics, Mr. WyrmGold!  But, yes, I agree. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Magic should be more of a tool than an industry, IMHO. Industries turn raw materials into uniquish goods; tools let you do that better.

Semantics, Mr. WyrmGold!  But, yes, I agree.

There is an important difference. If magic was an industry, you could turn X, Y and Z raw materials into A or B products, reliably but that's it.

[Adrian]

my (2)-copper coins-
Whenever I have thought about magic in DF, I always pictured it as a cabal of wizards performing the spell casting labor in a room full of statues, slabs, barrels of blood, with the intent of causing it to rain trout, or to resurrect a legendary cheese maker..

Consider mages being able to produce a quantified amount of magic through the spell casting labor. This would be used to fuel their spells.
One-off effects (like teleporting a gobin's spine two squares away) would require charging, and lasting effects (like a trout-rain) might require constant fueling.

I can definitely see a floor full of necromancers chanting away to keep their hordes animated.

[GreatWyrmGold]

my (2)-copper coins-
Whenever I have thought about magic in DF, I always pictured it as a cabal of wizards performing the spell casting labor in a room full of statues, slabs, barrels of blood, with the intent of causing it to rain trout, or to resurrect a legendary cheese maker..

Consider mages being able to produce a quantified amount of magic through the spell casting labor. This would be used to fuel their spells.
One-off effects (like teleporting a gobin's spine two squares away) would require charging, and lasting effects (like a trout-rain) might require constant fueling.

I can definitely see a floor full of necromancers chanting away to keep their hordes animated.

Somehow this sounds dangerously close to the idea of mana...but yes, magic should be limited.