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[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd also like to see logical consequences. E.g, screwing up a fireball doesn't turn you into a chicken, it sets you on fire.

But that's so boring, where is your inner Dwarf?

Although, I did like your proposal about more powerful spells bringing more bizarre/damaging/random consequences.

I also think we could do rather a lot with the idea of Golems and Dwarven culture having a more construction/crafting orientated magic system.

It might be interesting to turn into a chicken after miscasting a fireball, but it might also be interesting if creatures engulfed in magma turned into elves.
Again, while dwarven magic might be focused on armor, golems, and stone, individual dwarves wouldn't need to have that restriction.

I'd also like to see logical consequences. E.g, screwing up a fireball doesn't turn you into a chicken, it sets you on fire.

But that's so boring, where is your inner Dwarf?

Although, I did like your proposal about more powerful spells bringing more bizarre/damaging/random consequences.

I also think we could do rather a lot with the idea of Golems and Dwarven culture having a more construction/crafting orientated magic system.

It might be interesting to turn into a chicken after miscasting a fireball, but it might also be interesting if creatures engulfed in magma turned into elves.
Again, while dwarven magic might be focused on armor, golems, and stone, individual dwarves wouldn't need to have that restriction.

I think I remember you saying that bit about magma and elves before, and I disagree with it now as much as then. It's about magic we're talking about, never mind comparing it to changing the game mechanics of realistic things to do something bizarre. Magic is a blank slate, we can do whatever we want with it.

I never said it would be a restriction on individual dwarves either, it's just a part of the Dwarven culture that their spells are more craft-orientated.

A. Magic is not a blank slate. It was in 0.31.25; the slate has marks on it now. The basic story written is not yet determined, and the specifics will be determined by the players, and will likely involve dying elves given our history. I'm a bit fuzzy on your point, frankly; wasn't I making a point about players' psychology or making an analogy or something? It's been a while.
B. You didn't say anything either way. I made an assumption, a reasonable assumption seeing as it is the basic idea, especially given the conformist ideals of most fictional dwarven societies.

Complete randomization of magic could be quite interesting, especially when it comes down to things like enchantments.

Imagine a pair of dwarf socks that explode every time someone puts them on.

Quirky cursed items would be neat, but intentional magic should be relatively reliable, and screw-ups should have logical consequences--e.g, fireballs would set the wrong thing on fire, not turn you into a chicken.

And of course dwarves wouldn't learn and you'd blow up your entire fortress.

If dwarves don't have basic learning capabilities built in by then, you could just [f]orbid it.

I think it would be interesting if magic were not something an individual dwarf could do but rather some kind of gift from gods which, at the moment, don't really do anything apart from cursing random creatures. What if you had to put stuff on an altar as offerings to a god, while asking for something in return? Maybe it could be themed, for example giving coal for a fireball, stone for a wall, leather and bones for a powerful magical creature, etc. Of course, these are everyday, common items, but you could need a lot of them, for instance 50 coal units for a fire or 500 stone units for a wall.

Of course, the god can decide not to fulfill your request if they don't consider your offering enough (oh our god, will you give us a mountain of adamantite for this stone mug?). If they're particularly angry or the request too outrageous, they might decide to turn it against you (turning all your dwarves' brains into adamantite, killing your entire population). Or they might be willing to grant your request, but fail at it.

Maybe evil gods could intercept your request and decide to attack for fun. Your civilisation's protective god could then start to fight with them, or maybe choose to betray you. Gods could form friendships and grudges with each other, or maybe even with mere mortals. Mortal women could bear the children of gods, which would grow to become powerful half-god uber-humans/dwarves/goblins/whatever. The possibilities are endless. Imagine the !!FUN!!!

This could be interesting, but it shouldn't be the only possibility.

[assasin]

Quirky cursed items would be neat, but intentional magic should be relatively reliable, and screw-ups should have logical consequences--e.g, fireballs would set the wrong thing on fire, not turn you into a chicken.

I can come up with a logical reason for a bad fire spell turning you into a chicken. it dependson how the mechanics of the magic work. if magic is turned into fire from some stuff called mana and you can turn matter into mana and back again based on certain patterns then maybe a bad spell could shift you matter into mana and copy the pattern of a random object, in this case a chicken. The logic is nowhere near perfect, but it still makes some sense.

On the other hand if fire is just random fuel particles drawn from the atmosphere and had heat applied to it definately could not turn you into a chicken.

Of course I still wouldn't want to see completely random effects like that I'd still like some random. A bad fire spell might cause all the booze to explode, all the dwarves in a certain area to catch on fire for a few seasons, random dwarves spontaneously combusting, etc. they're all still based on fire, but the effects are still varied enough to make it interesting.

[gbrngfol]

Of course I still wouldn't want to see completely random effects like that I'd still like some random. A bad fire spell might cause all the booze to explode, all the dwarves in a certain area to catch on fire for a few seasons, random dwarves spontaneously combusting, etc. they're all still based on fire, but the effects are still varied enough to make it interesting.

Maybe magic could also have occasional good effects from going wrong. Eg: Urist Mcpyromancer mis-casts a fireball. A cone of flame erupts from his hand.

[arleneangle]

What you talk about is so interesting.

[Owlbread]

I still don't see anything wrong with being turned into a giant firebreathing chicken because you've messed up your fireball. I do like the idea that perhaps the more powerful the fireball spell, the more unusual the consequences.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Quirky cursed items would be neat, but intentional magic should be relatively reliable, and screw-ups should have logical consequences--e.g, fireballs would set the wrong thing on fire, not turn you into a chicken.

I can come up with a logical reason for a bad fire spell turning you into a chicken. it dependson how the mechanics of the magic work. if magic is turned into fire from some stuff called mana and you can turn matter into mana and back again based on certain patterns then maybe a bad spell could shift you matter into mana and copy the pattern of a random object, in this case a chicken. The logic is nowhere near perfect, but it still makes some sense.

On the other hand if fire is just random fuel particles drawn from the atmosphere and had heat applied to it definately could not turn you into a chicken.

Wouldn't the first example be more likely to turn you mana or fire or mana that is on fire or something?

Of course I still wouldn't want to see completely random effects like that I'd still like some random. A bad fire spell might cause all the booze to explode, all the dwarves in a certain area to catch on fire for a few seasons, random dwarves spontaneously combusting, etc. they're all still based on fire, but the effects are still varied enough to make it interesting.

Agreed.

I still don't see anything wrong with being turned into a giant firebreathing chicken because you've messed up your fireball. I do like the idea that perhaps the more powerful the fireball spell, the more unusual the consequences.

Again: Why a chicken? There needs to be SOME logic. If the spell requires a chicken feather, and so does a spell that turns people into chickens, screwing up either spell might turn you into a chicken that is on fire or something. The logic needs to be there, though; a fireball should NOT  turn you into a chicken without some kind of logic being explained or plain as to why.

[gbrngfol]

Again: Why a chicken? There needs to be SOME logic. If the spell requires a chicken feather, and so does a spell that turns people into chickens, screwing up either spell might turn you into a chicken that is on fire or something. The logic needs to be there, though; a fireball should NOT  turn you into a chicken without some kind of logic being explained or plain as to why.

You just gave the answer to your own problem. Make fireball spells require chicken feathers.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again: Why a chicken? There needs to be SOME logic. If the spell requires a chicken feather, and so does a spell that turns people into chickens, screwing up either spell might turn you into a chicken that is on fire or something. The logic needs to be there, though; a fireball should NOT  turn you into a chicken without some kind of logic being explained or plain as to why.

You just gave the answer to your own problem. Make fireball spells require chicken feathers.

It shouldn't always need chicken feathers, and fireballs shouldn't always turn you into chickens.

[Owlbread]

Again: Why a chicken? There needs to be SOME logic. If the spell requires a chicken feather, and so does a spell that turns people into chickens, screwing up either spell might turn you into a chicken that is on fire or something. The logic needs to be there, though; a fireball should NOT  turn you into a chicken without some kind of logic being explained or plain as to why.

You just gave the answer to your own problem. Make fireball spells require chicken feathers.

It shouldn't always need chicken feathers, and fireballs shouldn't always turn you into chickens.

I never said they should always turn you into chickens, I said they could. You could turn into a Spirit of Fire, you could turn into a burnt husk with flames coming out of his eyes. The effect would be procedurally generated. The more unstable the magic the more unpredictable the results. Take note that the chicken breathed fire, not water. It's not like the failed result of the spell should have no connection to the spell at all.

Think about when you debug a game, something I unfortunately know too little about. My understanding of it though is that when you implement a feature, take a feature out or edit some line of code or whatever, it can have unintended and unexpected consequences that could lead to things as weird as NPCs losing their hair and textures to really annoying shit like doors not opening or the completion of objectives not registering. The point is that you can have completely unrelated and bizarre consequences from doing simple stuff like changing a line of code or whatever. There's always a link and it's always logical (if the cause and effect weren't related they wouldn't be cause and effect), but they can be linked in ways you didn't expect or see. Perhaps magic is like that.

[JudgeJay]

Finally got round to registering on the forums because I want to shout about what I think  i.e., first post.

Disclaimer: This is a bit of a fantasy as I have not considered how feasible the following ideas are, my limited knowledge of programming languages means I'm aware that everything is far more complex than I can begin to imagine and it's never a case of "just change it so that..." But nevertheless.

If I was going to ram some serious magic into DF I'd make well and sure it was nothing anyone had seen before. This game deserves a punishingly complex magic lore, I'd be disappointing with just classes and spell levels. Now I'd be damned if I can figure out how to achieve it but what my heart desires is a system of core magical rules that result in something unlimited, dangerous and powerful.

   Some elements I think could work well within Dwarf Fortress

   Those of you who have read Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea will remember how everything has a true name that was written in the beginning of the world, the knowledge of which could give great power over a thing, this includes animate and inanimate things from people and birds to rocks and the wind. There is also a distinction between nouns and proper nouns, take a tree for example, there is one name for all trees, one for each species and another for each unique tree.

   As for having this work in DF, the more specific the name the more powerful an effect you can have. Imagine an Elf that can use magic to make a tree grow faster, if he knows the true name for all trees he could make every tree he is conscious of grow slightly faster, if he knows the name for a species he can make those trees grow even faster.

   Magic, Energy and Matter are interchangeable, temperature is simulated in the game, as I guess is kinetic energy, at least in a few cases I'm aware of (Minecarts, stray limbs, bolts and arrows) A more complete simulation would need to be implemented e.g., as it is constructed ice blocks don't melt.

   Conservation of magic, just like energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

   Animate things have an Animus/Soul which would be a concentration of Magic in a particular state or pattern, this would be manipulable according the the same rules that apply normally.

I'm tired now and am struggling to get ideas written sensibly but I hope you get the idea, it would be something we've not seen before and many things you would expect (like fireballs) would probably not be possible. But going back the the Elf and his trees, when I said "every tree he is conscious of" it made me think, what if it wasn't a pathetic elf but a Dwarf Necromancer of unrivaled power, he's not interested in helping trees grow, he does however know how to unravel a things soul. He also knows the true name for the elves and has uncovered the real name of their precious 'world' tree, and by drawing the magic from that stupidly huge tree has empowered his consciousness to include every last one of them.

EDIT: Spellings

[GreatWyrmGold]

Magic should be more like matter than energy; you can only destroy one by turning it into another. For instance, you could" destroy" magic to create heat energy, ie a fireball.

[Putnam]

Magic should be more like matter than energy; you can only destroy one by turning it into another. For instance, you could" destroy" magic to create heat energy, ie a fireball.

Energy's the same way, you know >_>

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not familiar of any way to turn energy into matter.

[JudgeJay]

Photosynthesis?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Uses energy to construct big molecules from little ones.