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Author Topic: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers  (Read 2823 times)

Hyndis

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 03:21:26 pm »

I'll try a floor grate under my vampire (TBH I'd forgotten floor grates block arrows), and if that doesn't work I'll try a hunting dog instead.

Thanks heaps to everyone for the help and ideas.

You may still have to give the vampire clothing so he doesn't go insane. If he's insane but depressed then its no big deal. A depressed vampire will never actually die, as they do not need any food or drink. Problem is that if he goes berserk he will frighten civilians and might destroy the grates he's standing on.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 08:24:37 pm »

...
I read that dwarves have a 2x2x2 "observation cube" around them and that within this cube they will detect any enemies, even stealthed, even through walls and floors.  This does not appear to be the case.
...

The cube is 7x7x7 (the observer is at the center, so it's the 3 tiles next to them in all directions) and it requires line of sight. This can be tested in the arena by creating a grand master observer, then creating a noob ambusher somewhere out of sight. Possess the noob ambusher and see how close you can get to the grand master observer without being detected.

I'd suggest channeling a hole in the floor, building a grate over it, and then pitting an animal into the hole. In that order. Repeat several times down the hall to get 100% stealth detection. Grates currently allow sight but block arrows.

SuicideJunkie

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 08:27:20 pm »

I'd suggest channeling a hole in the floor, building a grate over it, and then pitting an animal into the hole. In that order. Repeat several times down the hall to get 100% stealth detection. Grates currently allow sight but block arrows.
Put those grates in the ceiling of the corridor, and building destroyers won't be able to wreck your overhead sensor network.
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doublestrafe

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 08:41:50 pm »

...
I read that dwarves have a 2x2x2 "observation cube" around them and that within this cube they will detect any enemies, even stealthed, even through walls and floors.  This does not appear to be the case.
...

The cube is 7x7x7 (the observer is at the center, so it's the 3 tiles next to them in all directions) and it requires line of sight. This can be tested in the arena by creating a grand master observer, then creating a noob ambusher somewhere out of sight. Possess the noob ambusher and see how close you can get to the grand master observer without being detected.

I'd suggest channeling a hole in the floor, building a grate over it, and then pitting an animal into the hole. In that order. Repeat several times down the hall to get 100% stealth detection. Grates currently allow sight but block arrows.
That's for a Grand Master Observer, though. The cube is of variable size based on Observer skill.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 08:54:40 pm »

...
I read that dwarves have a 2x2x2 "observation cube" around them and that within this cube they will detect any enemies, even stealthed, even through walls and floors.  This does not appear to be the case.
...

The cube is 7x7x7 (the observer is at the center, so it's the 3 tiles next to them in all directions) and it requires line of sight. This can be tested in the arena by creating a grand master observer, then creating a noob ambusher somewhere out of sight. Possess the noob ambusher and see how close you can get to the grand master observer without being detected.

I'd suggest channeling a hole in the floor, building a grate over it, and then pitting an animal into the hole. In that order. Repeat several times down the hall to get 100% stealth detection. Grates currently allow sight but block arrows.
That's for a Grand Master Observer, though. The cube is of variable size based on Observer skill.

Nope, the cube is the same size but the chance of detection changes. Noob observers can "see" just as far as the best observers, but skill makes you better at seeing things.

Creatures that can't learn (such as animals) have a low chance of detection. After a long time of walking in circles just inside the max range, a noob observer also detected my grand master ambusher, so the chance of a highly skilled ambusher being detected is nonzero.

doublestrafe

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2012, 10:37:51 pm »

Ok, that's in direct contradiction to what the wiki says. But some very awkward testing (I've never done adventure mode, wtf am I doing in the arena) does seem to bear you out, so somebody who is better at science is gonna have to fix the wiki.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 12:06:12 am »

Ok, that's in direct contradiction to what the wiki says. But some very awkward testing (I've never done adventure mode, wtf am I doing in the arena) does seem to bear you out, so somebody who is better at science is gonna have to fix the wiki.

What wiki page is that? I added some info to the http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Observer page back in July 2012.

It also seems that the detection chance is increased when the stealthed creature is closer to the observer, based on walking near and around a noob observer with a grand master ambusher.

doublestrafe

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 12:42:16 am »

Well, for starters, from the page you just linked:

Quote
The observer skill represents the ability of a dwarf to spot a stealth unit. The higher the skill the bigger the distance.
Moreover, there's no mention anywhere of it being anything but all-or-nothing--you go in the box, you're detected. There's nothing about chances of detection at different ranges, or the Ambusher skill being involved in determining success. (The Ambusher page is a lot better, but not without problems--don't hunters stay ambushed when firing? The prey behavior seems to indicate so.)
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Iosyn

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 05:13:02 am »

hunters stay hidden until they fire, it seems. After that it's a bloody wild goose chase.
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PaleBlueHammer

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 08:48:46 am »

I'm guessing that for the purposes of building a detection room, green glass floors will work just as well as grates?
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Quote from: misko27
If adamantine is revealed for more then 2 years without being completely mined it all turns into galena. Useless, Useless Galena.

Mr S

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 09:01:39 am »

Some of the !!Science!! I've read on that in other threads suggest that any floor or wall is completely opaque, as far as LOS is concerned, regardless of material.  Windows are another story, since they are designed to be seen through.  But then, it is just as ridiculous to think you could see clearly through a tiger's eye window, as NOT see through a crystal glass floor, so yeah.  Oh, and YMMV.
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PaleBlueHammer

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 10:02:37 am »

Some of the !!Science!! I've read on that in other threads suggest that any floor or wall is completely opaque, as far as LOS is concerned, regardless of material.  Windows are another story, since they are designed to be seen through.  But then, it is just as ridiculous to think you could see clearly through a tiger's eye window, as NOT see through a crystal glass floor, so yeah.  Oh, and YMMV.

Grates it is then.   :P
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Quote from: misko27
If adamantine is revealed for more then 2 years without being completely mined it all turns into galena. Useless, Useless Galena.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 12:39:55 pm »

Some of the !!Science!! I've read on that in other threads suggest that any floor or wall is completely opaque, as far as LOS is concerned, regardless of material.  Windows are another story, since they are designed to be seen through.  But then, it is just as ridiculous to think you could see clearly through a tiger's eye window, as NOT see through a crystal glass floor, so yeah.  Oh, and YMMV.
You can also see through a stone window, thanks to the ability to cut stone. I guess dwarves make stone windows by arranging pretty bits of rocks into patterns with holes in them.
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Mr S

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Re: Observer not detecting thieves, kidnappers
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 03:06:09 pm »

Wattle and daub, my good man.  Well, kinda.
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