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[Thorbinator]

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5516

Alright, I spent several hours testing this and messing with raws in the arena

Variables that changing did nothing:
size, velocity multiplier, penetration_size in item_ammo.txt
shoot_force, shoot_maxvel in item_weapon.txt under crossbow

What I finally settled on was that this bug is some underlying factor that maximizes the damage/force/velocity of these bolts, and I can't change that.

What I could change, and did, was the glancing. When I set contact_area in item_ammo.txt to 60 (instead of 2) then copper bolts only penetrate full iron armor in the upper arms and legs. This is a bad bandaid fix, but it is far better than what is currently in the game.

Wooden is useless against any kind of armor but still good against cloth/naked, bolts above copper still penetrate armor easily. I haven't tested these bolts vs adamantine.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1285839/item_ammo.txt

Here is my modified raw. To install this fix, either change the 2 to 60 yourself, or download the text file and overwrite it in both your raws [Dwarf Fortress/raw/objects] and your saves [Dwarf Fortress/data/save/(region)/raw/objects]. If you're not sure how to implement this with a mod, I don't know either.

What inspired my inquiry was taking a wooden bolt to the head through an iron helm as an adventurer. FUN for me, fixes for everyone else.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Excellent. I'd advise posting this on modding--Toady's more likely to let the bug stand until he fixes the underlying issues.

[Phlum]

I like it, one could also give arrows and bolts an even larger range of fire and make archer skills less accurate. One may also ask how a larger range of fire is a nerf, hopefully the less accurate archers would waste more arrows and therefore nerf arrows. Less accurate archers would hopefully mean that throwing is also nerfed.

In all reality we will probably never get archery right without anyone who has first hand experience in combat by archery (rare as hell nowdays) to tell us how penetrating arrows of different matirials are.  The best way I can see to improve archery is ask a sport archer how far they can shoot and how often they can hit. The entire problem that I'm trying to bring to your attention is that we have no idea how accurate the archers of old were and how deadly the projectiles.

[EnigmaticHat]

I like it, one could also give arrows and bolts an even larger range of fire and make archer skills less accurate. One may also ask how a larger range of fire is a nerf, hopefully the less accurate archers would waste more arrows and therefore nerf arrows. Less accurate archers would hopefully mean that throwing is also nerfed.

In all reality we will probably never get archery right without anyone who has first hand experience in combat by archery (rare as hell nowdays) to tell us how penetrating arrows of different matirials are.  The best way I can see to improve archery is ask a sport archer how far they can shoot and how often they can hit. The entire problem that I'm trying to bring to your attention is that we have no idea how accurate the archers of old were and how deadly the projectiles.

Well, we could fire a period bow into a period suit of armor (or a reasonable recreation thereof) that had some sort of realistic fake flesh underneath.  Depends on how much we money/time we think accurate arrow penetration in DF is worth.

[Funk]

if we hunt down good studys (i.e. not a 6 inch square of butted mail shoot from 20 foot away and hit dead on 90 degrees )

try to find some like this

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like it, one could also give arrows and bolts an even larger range of fire and make archer skills less accurate. One may also ask how a larger range of fire is a nerf, hopefully the less accurate archers would waste more arrows and therefore nerf arrows. Less accurate archers would hopefully mean that throwing is also nerfed.

In all reality we will probably never get archery right without anyone who has first hand experience in combat by archery (rare as hell nowdays) to tell us how penetrating arrows of different matirials are.  The best way I can see to improve archery is ask a sport archer how far they can shoot and how often they can hit. The entire problem that I'm trying to bring to your attention is that we have no idea how accurate the archers of old were and how deadly the projectiles.

Well, we could fire a period bow into a period suit of armor (or a reasonable recreation thereof) that had some sort of realistic fake flesh underneath.  Depends on how much we money/time we think accurate arrow penetration in DF is worth.

We could also steal research from people who've done this kind of study. And by "steal," I mean "read."

[Phlum]

Sorry, I didn't realize how sarcastic my post was. I take it we don't know any good arrow penetration studies besides Funk's? [edit] which is, in fact more of a sword study. have you shown this to the !!Science!! people?

[Joben]

In all reality we will probably never get archery right without anyone who has first hand experience in combat by archery (rare as hell nowdays) to tell us how penetrating arrows of different matirials are.  The best way I can see to improve archery is ask a sport archer how far they can shoot and how often they can hit. The entire problem that I'm trying to bring to your attention is that we have no idea how accurate the archers of old were and how deadly the projectiles.

Why do you need combat for penetration data? Just ask (a) hunters and (b) hard core re-enactors.

While you're at it you can ask the same folks about accuracy and get data for at least some educated guesses.

It's not like archery and it's equipment and capabilities are some lost unknowable art. It's probably one of the easiest to research, because unlike say the martial use of swords it's NEVER gone out of style entirely, and the materials used didn't change until very very recently.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Do the hard-core re-enactors shoot each other with bows whilst in armor? Do hunters armor deer? If either of these are true, how much brain damage have they suffered?
Asking them about accuracy would be useful, though.

[helmacon]

I think most use of archers in a seige or battle wound include more of a rain of arrows, as opposed to all the archers picking single targets from relativily close range. A better nerf for archers, in battle anyways, would be too have archer squads fire in waves, with less acuretsy and a wider range of fire. Still useful to kill attacking massed goblins but not so op. Maby a slightly slower rate of fire. Something different for hunters and lone sharpshooters would be needed. That would take a lot more work though, and this is stil a good quick fix.
Sorry for spelling im useing a phone.

[thobal]

We could ask history, which tells us some peasants with long bows will absolutely murder mounted knights in full plate.

[Funk]

We could ask history, which tells us some peasants with long bows will absolutely murder mounted knights in full plate.

NO not that old inaccurate bs of the super long bow.
armors heavy,uncomfortable to where and expensive so it has got to do some thing? right?

a nice test
this time with bows
quality wolfsburg steel vs bow

[Wrex]

It's funny how one of the video's you linked proved the effectiveness of bodkin arrows shot from the english longbow. Unless I misunderstood your point, which looks increasingly likely.


Also, arrow type is very important. Typical hunting tips do not penetrate platemail. Bodkins do.

[Phlum]

You might notice that two out of three of those vids shot form less than fifteen feet. The other vid had next to no explanation and could be unreliable. The arrows also hit at near right angles every single time. Also, the plate mail was ment to keep out the slashes and stabs of hand to hand combat. The chain mail and boiled leather underneath was what stopped the arrows.

[helmacon]

Hmmm...
Different amunition types anyone?
Arrows plus cloth and magma bucket = flameing arrows.
Arrows plus venom barrel equels = poisin  arrows, or even a tranqiliser, for that elusive cave dragon.
Make hunting arrows?
Make flat arrows?
Exploding arrows!?
Make kitten tiped arrows?
The posibilitys are endless!