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[squishynoob]

The ranged weapons are particularly bad.
To all of you claiming it's "realistic", i once tested in the arena: a louse-man with a blowgun and high skills vs a fully armored giant. The darts were _shattering_ bones through a breastplate and 3 layered mail shirts - all of them extremely thick judging by their weight of ~3000 urists.

After a load of modding, I've determined that changing projectile size in any way - either bigger or smaller - will make them unstoppable, for some reason. These settings about weapons are what I used to tweak it:

Code: (Raws) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]

[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]

[SIZE:400]

[SKILL:HAMMER]

[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]

[SHOOT_FORCE:50]

[SHOOT_MAXVEL:750]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.

[TWO_HANDED:0]

[MINIMUM_SIZE:45000]

[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]

[NAME:bow:bows]

[SIZE:300]

[SKILL:SWORD]

[RANGED:BOW:ARROW]

[SHOOT_FORCE:15]

[SHOOT_MAXVEL:750]

[TWO_HANDED:0]

[MINIMUM_SIZE:45000]

[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]

[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]



[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BLOWGUN]

[NAME:blowgun:blowguns]

[SIZE:150]

[SKILL:SWORD]

[RANGED:BLOWGUN:BLOWDART]

[SHOOT_FORCE:1]

[SHOOT_MAXVEL:100] I suppose you could blow harder and harder, but the force prevents it from getting out of hand.

[TWO_HANDED:0]

[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000]

[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]

[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]
They won't get through your armor like butter, but they're still pretty nasty otherwise.

Pain issue - the problem here is that pain, unlike bleeding, doesn't scale with the size of the wound. Hence, two chipped toes making you give in to pain, while a pulverized upper leg does not.

[t9nv3]

I like the game the way it is. For me, its not about long epic quests where one hero changes the shape of an entire civ. For me, DF adventure mode is about a being a very small fish in a very interesting pond. I like all the potential for interaction and surprise. As the world becomes "activated" and you can make small changes in a persistent world, I think people will start seeing the real "scope" and potential of adventure mode. I gen a world....read the history of said world, then go off and have fun times there. I really like spending a lot of time in legends mode....for me, it really sets the stage for my adventures. At the end of the day, it's all about the "world" not the individual living in it. Kind of hard for me to explain what I mean exactly, but that's how I see adventure mode...and where its going.   

[Auning]

I don't find it unfortunate that it's "too" realistic. It kind of sets it apart in that you aren't just magically stronger than everyone for some arbitrary reason. For example, in other RPGs you can get repeatedly stabbed, slashed, and bludgeoned and still survive easily, and everyone dies in a few hits.

I strongly oppose using various skill and attribute leveling shenanigans (like repeatedly grabbing and releasing some creature, choking undead infinitely, throwing dirt at the ground, sneaking in circles.) and yet I still have had a fair number of strong, successful characters without using various cheap tactics, or hiding behind walls of companions. You just need to not play the game like you would with other traditional RPGs. You need to be cautious and careful, just as you would in real life.

As adventure mode gets more fleshed out with various features, you will have a bit more control of your character and more of a choice on things to do. Things like I.R.D.S (instant random death syndrome) will be more avoidable in combat with this increase of control. In terms of general gameplay, with more options being given (Such as living the life of a trader, etc), you won't be forced to kill things just to impact the world. So, getting randomly headshotted by an elite crossbowman won't be something that you will almost inevitably face. Lethal combat is just a part of the life of a warrior. If you really dislike nerve damage and the like, simply become a were-beast. When you do finally triumph against the rail-gun wielders of death, it makes the victory all that much more sweeter.

Remember, Toady understands that losing is fun IF you have control over the outcome, not just an inevitable death.

[Dyret]

People tend to forget two things.

A. Dwarf Fortress isn't finished.
B. Dwarf Fortress isn't meant to be won.

If you're looking for the traditional style of heroic rpg adventure mode isn't finished enough to support that in any event... killing stuff and getting killed back is literally all there is to it at this moment.

[k9wazere]

Well I don't play "action" RPGs, the kind where you're a lone swordsman cutting a swathe through legions of enemies. What I'm comparing too isn't that. It's more like Baldur's Gate.

In BG you weren't mysteriously stronger than anyone else. Your character was subject to the same D&D rules as the bad guys (actually the AI cheated massively to give NPCs multiple protections).

I like the phrase you just used : I.R.D.S. == Instant Random Death Syndrome.

That's what I most object to in DF:Adventure, I think. (this is why we need Save/Load)

The time when you can be doing really well, everything under control, your heavily armoured self finishing off a half-dead peasant who ordinarily would pose no problem... then suddenly, "You are deceased." Why? The peasant, out of nowhere, threw a punch which liquidised your brain.

[k9wazere]

I strongly oppose using various skill and attribute leveling shenanigans (like repeatedly grabbing and releasing some creature, choking undead infinitely, throwing dirt at the ground, sneaking in circles.) and yet I still have had a fair number of strong, successful characters without using various cheap tactics, or hiding behind walls of companions.

I'd guess that for 99% of players, attempting to play without using one of those techniques (grinding/hiding/throwing/human shield) is going to be futile.

If you aren't grinding skills/attributes or hiding behind soldiers, you need the most ungodly luck to survive.

Please don't tell me you're using non-demigod characters, charging into battle, and living to tell the tale. I just wouldn't believe it.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The ranged weapons are particularly bad.
To all of you claiming it's "realistic", i once tested in the arena: a louse-man with a blowgun and high skills vs a fully armored giant. The darts were _shattering_ bones through a breastplate and 3 layered mail shirts - all of them extremely thick judging by their weight of ~3000 urists.

After a load of modding, I've determined that changing projectile size in any way - either bigger or smaller - will make them unstoppable, for some reason. These settings about weapons are what I used to tweak it:

So many variables here. What material were the armour/darts made out of, what were the skills of a giant e.t.c.
Not to mention arena mode has no variable attributes in creatures. It's not a perfect analogue of adventure or Fortress mode.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Blowguns, bows and crossbows all have the same [SHOOT_MAXVEL] so their missiles all come out flying at the same speed.
When it comes to ammunition however, blowdarts have 50% of the contact area of an arrow or bolt and so are more likely to penetrate soft armours and lodge in wounds than the other ammunition types of the same material.
That said, blowdarts also have 4000% less penetration depth than an arrow or bolt, so if they do hit wounds, they're not as likely to outright kill anything. This coupled with darts never being made out of metal means that it'll be Aztecs vs Leopard tanks if ever faced with a fully armoured steel Dwarf.
And considering how you'll only ever find darts from subterranean civs, you'll have a limited number of darts to use for the entire existence of your fort. You'd have to ration ammunition usage carefully.
There is however one saving grace for darts.
They're poisoned. It's rare to find a cave civ that hasn't poisoned their darts. Sometimes it can be bumblebee venom, to the more potent helmet snake venom or even GCS venom. If you can seize a cache of the stuff and store it in a cool dry place for a Fortress emergency, you can absolutely wreak havoc with creatures like goblins... Or cave dwellers.

Seriously just bring a shield with you and make sure you bloody well know how to use it. If you bring a fledgeling adventurer wearing naught but some rope reed clothes and a leather cap to a fight against blowgunners, you will die. If you bring a seasoned adventurer with a shield then those blowgunners are screwed. Add armour to the mix, they don't stand that much of a chance.

@Batmantis: go * yourself, pal. People like you make me sick.

Keep it civil, there was nothing he said that warranted this sentence.

If you aren't grinding skills/attributes or hiding behind soldiers, you need the most ungodly luck to survive.

I only really bring soldiers to ward off bogeymen and take hits for me if ambushed whilst sleeping. You need to take note of potential dangers or something will inevitably kill you.

Please don't tell me you're using non-demigod characters, charging into battle, and living to tell the tale. I just wouldn't believe it.

Tip: Don't just charge into battle.

[Auning]

The time when you can be doing really well, everything under control, your heavily armoured self finishing off a half-dead peasant who ordinarily would pose no problem... then suddenly, "You are deceased." Why? The peasant, out of nowhere, threw a punch which liquidised your brain.

This is going to be fixed in the upcoming update. With non lethal combat, things such as this specifically won't exist. You know, caving in people's skulls with a fist. I know that much will be addressed. It had to be fixed so when bar fights come around, people's slugs won't be consistently shattering the other guy's skull. I'm not sure how far reaching the combat changes will be (will cover quite a lot, it seems) but it will likely fix some straight up silly problems like this.

[squishynoob]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The ranged weapons are particularly bad.
To all of you claiming it's "realistic", i once tested in the arena: a louse-man with a blowgun and high skills vs a fully armored giant. The darts were _shattering_ bones through a breastplate and 3 layered mail shirts - all of them extremely thick judging by their weight of ~3000 urists.

After a load of modding, I've determined that changing projectile size in any way - either bigger or smaller - will make them unstoppable, for some reason. These settings about weapons are what I used to tweak it:

So many variables here. What material were the armour/darts made out of, what were the skills of a giant e.t.c.
Not to mention arena mode has no variable attributes in creatures. It's not a perfect analogue of adventure or Fortress mode.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Blowguns, bows and crossbows all have the same [SHOOT_MAXVEL] so their missiles all come out flying at the same speed.
When it comes to ammunition however, blowdarts have 50% of the contact area of an arrow or bolt and so are more likely to penetrate soft armours and lodge in wounds than the other ammunition types of the same material.
That said, blowdarts also have 4000% less penetration depth than an arrow or bolt, so if they do hit wounds, they're not as likely to outright kill anything. This coupled with darts never being made out of metal means that it'll be Aztecs vs Leopard tanks if ever faced with a fully armoured steel Dwarf.
And considering how you'll only ever find darts from subterranean civs, you'll have a limited number of darts to use for the entire existence of your fort. You'd have to ration ammunition usage carefully.
There is however one saving grace for darts.
They're poisoned. It's rare to find a cave civ that hasn't poisoned their darts. Sometimes it can be bumblebee venom, to the more potent helmet snake venom or even GCS venom. If you can seize a cache of the stuff and store it in a cool dry place for a Fortress emergency, you can absolutely wreak havoc with creatures like goblins... Or cave dwellers.

Seriously just bring a shield with you and make sure you bloody well know how to use it. If you bring a fledgeling adventurer wearing naught but some rope reed clothes and a leather cap to a fight against blowgunners, you will die. If you bring a seasoned adventurer with a shield then those blowgunners are screwed. Add armour to the mix, they don't stand that much of a chance.

All iron, both darts and armor.
Adept Archer + blowgunner louse man, vs grand master armor user giant.

Even in full armor, every hit will chip (sorry, not shatter, I was wrong) a bone - by blunt trauma that is, the above soft tissues are just "bruised".
Try it for yourselves if you don't believe me.

EDIT: every mail shirt weighs in ~2900 urists, and the breastplate ~2600. I used three mail shirts and one breastplate.
And apparently a supersonic blowdart managed to punch through all of them. Even copper darts will work (although, thankfully, wood will not).

[Monk321654]

Now THAT, is in all reality, not fun.
But it's also not (Hopefully) intended.
All The Great One needs to do is iron out bugs in the system.
They'll be fixed sometime.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All iron, both darts and armor.
Adept Archer + blowgunner louse man, vs grand master armor user giant.

Even in full armor, every hit will chip (sorry, not shatter, I was wrong) a bone - by blunt trauma that is, the above soft tissues are just "bruised".
Try it for yourselves if you don't believe me.

EDIT: every mail shirt weighs in ~2900 urists, and the breastplate ~2600. I used three mail shirts and one breastplate.
And apparently a supersonic blowdart managed to punch through all of them. Even copper darts will work (although, thankfully, wood will not).

Darts are never made out of metal in Fortress or Adventure mode.

although, thankfully, wood will not

Coincidentally they're only ever made out of wood.

Which is why it's not an accurate analogue. Darts have a higher contact area than arrows and bolts too, meaning the [EDGE] attack is more likely to be blocked by armor and turned into a blunt attack if it hits solid armour. If it's a wood bolt, it's a 'meh', your Dwarves might as well be wearing power armour. If it's metal, it's essentially a warhammer travelling at the same velocity as a bolt.

[parlor_tricks]

I think when someone pointed out the basic motto: Losing is fun, it reiterated a major part of the ethos of playing DF.

Heck even Fort Mode used to be far more arbitrary than this.

Also, abuse isn't called for here.

META:

This topic was ill titled, it immediately will end up causing posters to bring up anecdotal evidence to support their positions, while splitting the posters into 2 arbitrary groups.


Further its unwise to discuss it in these terms - you make getting a resolution impossible, since statement "I am leaving X game till things change", is resolution less.

Even if you had focused on being frustrated, or focused on irritation it would still allow people to give support, commiseration or laugh at your most recent absurd death.

DF has always been brutally fickle. Heck Adv mode was nigh on unplayable a while back, expecting to wait till something improves in a game where the motto is "Losing is fun", is, slightly redundant isn't it?

[k9wazere]

Also, abuse isn't called for here.

Telling someone to "man up" is virtually the same as telling someone they are a loser, or a wimp, or a big jessie, hence my reaction.

I thought telling him to * off in reply was a balanced reaction. Honestly, I still do.

He made no attempt to be civil to me (oh sure, he disguised his insult, a little) and I in turn made no attempt to be civil to him. Two wrongs, and all that. I won't bother trying to be the bigger man online.

[k9wazere]

I think when someone pointed out the basic motto: Losing is fun, it reiterated a major part of the ethos of playing DF.

I think I can (just about) sum up my feelings and irritations. One last time.

Consider Super Meat Boy. A game where you lose often, yet is still fun while you lose (I won't claim it has the longevity of DF, mind). When you lose in SMB, it was always your fault. You weren't quick enough, you mistimed a jump, you didn't work out the objective.

In DF:Adventure, you can lose at any time, in the most random of ways. Often times, the manner of your deaths would leave onlookers confused as to exactly what you did wrong. To explain to those onlookers, you'd be left simply saying, "DF is like that. Anything can kill you. You can trip over your feet and hit your head on a rock and die. Nothing you can do about it, some times."

Now I'm not saying that it's never my fault. Normally, it is my fault. But the occasions where I'm doing well, and then BAM a random death which *isn't* my fault, causes me to have to start over - that's my frustration.

[Rumrusher]

Well So is this thread about "Realism vs losing"? seems like that other thread about how science can take the fun out of the game which led to people giving out answers to the person issues at the matter. Adventure mode kinda has a we all learning something new each playthrough and any hardships we hit be it, fire being unable to move, arrows are over powered, can't get access into towers and what not. all get brought up as challenges for someone to beat. So far someone figure out in Modding that you can make a 7/7 water reaction so that beats out fire being an issue(thought that means you need to be trucking about 3000 units of water on hand), shields and being stealthy though arrows are only OP in npc hands for some weird reason though I just crack out my dodging skill and target them first, towers uhh hmm someone has to have a solution for that one. Also isn't pain also factor in if you have toughness set in? I don't know as of now if that max out attribute glitch still exist in 34.11 where you get weaker when you level up but I think a low toughness person should pass out from losing a toe, hell getting a toenail remove is painful.

So please tell us what's your random death and we can explain to you how to avoid it or find it a good time to high tail out of there before you get crush.